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post #166 of 783
I have Never understood the need for an external DAC anyway. Perhaps that's because I'm a Mac guy. If the computer comes with excellent audio in and out, and your iPod had the same DAC as in standalone CD players, why string up a chain of Christmas lights just to play a song?

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post #167 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post


We already gave you the tip on that. HDMI is your friend.

 

Moshi Mini DP to HDMI adapter

 

The Moshi Mini DisplayPort to HDMI adapter lets you connect to a display or HDTV that uses an HDMI connector. It supports full HD video display at 1080p (1920 by 1080), as well as HDMI audio pass-through. Compatible with Mac computers with Mini DisplayPort or Thunderbolt ports.

 
  •  None [Subtract S$ 54.00]
  •  Moshi Mini DisplayPort to HDMI Adapter (with audio)

 

think i will need to add an adaptor if i go hdmi..

post #168 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post


That's all a cable can do. It can't improve the sound. It either passes the data across without changing it, or it distorts it. Wires don't have magical properties to make music more musical or anything like that.

Not true. Some USB cables harm the music less... and there you have it. We simply disagree.

post #169 of 783
Uh... I don't see how we disagree. You just said the same thing I did.
post #170 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

I have Never understood the need for an external DAC anyway. Perhaps that's because I'm a Mac guy. If the computer comes with excellent audio in and out, and your iPod had the same DAC as in standalone CD players, why string up a chain of Christmas lights just to play a song?

Then you really need to head out there to your local dealer and audition some DACs the diffrence is HUGE.

No computer today comes with excellent audio.

post #171 of 783

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

I have Never understood the need for an external DAC anyway. Perhaps that's because I'm a Mac guy. If the computer comes with excellent audio in and out, and your iPod had the same DAC as in standalone CD players, why string up a chain of Christmas lights just to play a song?

 

I have an HP laptop these days with fabulous beats audio frown.gif... It's still an upgrade from my 5 year old Dell. Eventually I will bypass their annoying automatic volume gain control buried deep inside MickeySoft Windoze. I have it running Ubuntu via wubi to bypass beats awesomeness.

 

If you have a desktop with a good soundcard, or if a Mac's laptop audio card gets the job done I guess life is good redface.gif.


Edited by ultrabike - 8/15/12 at 10:32pm
post #172 of 783
Danne, do you have a Mac? Because it isn't like with PCs. My Mac Mini A/V server kicks ass major league. I'd put it up against anything. It's designed to be an audio and video hub from the ground up. Plug and play.

I'm driving a high end screening room and listening room off a little Mac Mini. It's really all you need. HDMI out, straight into my Yamaha amp. Piece of cake. The analogue out sounds just as good.
Edited by bigshot - 8/15/12 at 10:38pm
post #173 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

Do you have a Mac? Because it isn't like with PCs. My Mac Mini A/V server kicks ass major league. I'd put it up against anything. It's designed to be an audio and video hub from the ground up. Plug and play.
I'm driving a high end screening room and listening room off a little Mac Mini. It's really all you need.

 

Nope. I'm considering an iPad in the near term for somewhat portable (my Sansa Zip cuts it for portable for now.) I currently use a Netgear NeoTV550 to pump bits out of my NAS into my Yamaha  RXV-663 via monoprice HDMI cables biggrin.gif. My little ones get to use it more though... Pixar get's a lot of play time these days. At night got to keep it low, so it's just my laptop and my phones...

 

Maybe a DAC/amp in the future to improve on my laptop's sound card (though I have Total Bithead which I sometimes use), and some better phones. Leckerton UHA-6 mkII seems well regarded, we'll see...


Edited by ultrabike - 8/15/12 at 10:58pm
post #174 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

I have Never understood the need for an external DAC anyway. Perhaps that's because I'm a Mac guy. If the computer comes with excellent audio in and out, and your iPod had the same DAC as in standalone CD players, why string up a chain of Christmas lights just to play a song?

 

I build my own PCs, I want a better sound card and/or external DAC just for the fact that most integrated sound chips on PC motherboards have poor shielding which picks up EM noise that you can actually hear with sensitive IEMs.  

post #175 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanaholic View Post

 

I build my own PCs, I want a better sound card and/or external DAC just for the fact that most integrated sound chips on PC motherboards have poor shielding which picks up EM noise that you can actually hear with sensitive IEMs.  

 

I pick up line noise from my onboard soundcard even with full-size headphones. Not the case with my dedicated sound card though.

post #176 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post

So what you are saying is the DAC receives its clock from the computer. How exactly does it work? USB2.0 runs 488MHz and the DAC runs 44KHz. What if I have a USB1 or USB3, won't that really screw up the system?

 

Let's assume if indeed you get your clock from the computer. Let's say my music is recorded at 43KHz (there will be tolerance and I am exaggerating the difference) and you are running 44KHz. Won't that cause buffer under run?

 

People are confused by synchronous transmission and synchronous timing. Synchronous transmission is synchronous to a transmit schedule which gurantees bandwidth and latency that's important in real time communication. Synchronous timing refers to clock synchronization which is necessary to recover data.

 

Thanks for explaining this - so with synchronous adaptive transmission the DAC uses an [adaptive] control circuit to clock the PCM data output based on the average transfer rate, but the computer is in charge of clocking the data transmission to the USB device?

 

I think I did mix up synchronous timing with synchronous transmission.

post #177 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post


"Real World" is what human beings can actually hear.
Welcome to Sound Science. Sorry about your misconceptions.

 

So there is no reality outside of what can be proven to others?  Is something real if it has not yet been proven?

post #178 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

 

So there is no reality outside of what can be proven to others?  Is something real if it has not yet been proven?

 

If something runs counter to accepted and already proven theories it is the responsibility of the former to prove the existence and/or validity of the claim. Just as lack of proof doesn't necessarily imply falsehood, lack of proof to the contrary is not equivalent to truism.

 

If A is true and any such B contradicts A, proving B is true would mean A is untrue. Inductively if B cannot be proved true we can say A is true in the general case. If no arbitrary B can be produced we can say that A is true and B is false.

 

To me (correct me if I am wrong), to prove there is a difference in sound one would have to:

 

A) Show quantitatively that an average (working) USB cable is unable to transport data as well as a high end cable. This can be done through monitoring packets or otherwise. Since it is a digital signal it should be bit perfect, this is quite easily to verify unlike analog signal that can depend on the sensitivity of the testing instruments. If the data is verified as having no errors it is unequivocal proof that cables make no difference.

 

B) ABX testing with statistically valid sample sizes. Since with any statistical test even as n goes to infinity one cannot state with true certainty ABX testing is only useful if case A) is inconclusive. It A proves there is no data degradation or otherwise but ABX testing shows statistically valid differences the analytic solution will always take precedence over statistical and numerical methods. 

 

This argument cannot be necessarily extended to analog signal because then you are limited by the accuracy and precision of measuring equipment.


Edited by TickleMeElmo - 8/16/12 at 6:34am
post #179 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanaholic View Post

I build my own PCs, I want a better sound card and/or external DAC just for the fact that most integrated sound chips on PC motherboards have poor shielding which picks up EM noise that you can actually hear with sensitive IEMs.  

It's a PC thing I guess. I've never had a Mac that had EM interference. Even the very first AV Mac with audio in and out I had 15 years ago. Mac sound has always been as good as you possibly need.
post #180 of 783

Sighhh... A good USB cable really does sound better.... way better. This phenomenon isn't caused by bit errors. It goes beyond our expertise here to talk about it with any degree of authority. If the issue were simple bit errors, the difference between an average USB cable and a high-end USB cable would not be manifested as a loss in sound-staging, frequency response, dynamics, pace, (add your own here) and the subtle nuances that make music so enjoyable to us. If a most-significant bit error occurred, then such errors would result in a click/pop artifact. That not what happens between run-of-the-mill and high-end USB cables. If bit errors were responsible, the musical integrity would come and go, it would be intermittent. That doesn't happen either.

 

Please move past the theory and try it on a nice system... preferably not a Yamaha receiver. Go visit a good dealer (or perhaps find a nice company with a  trial period), bring your nice $20 Belkin USB cable and ask them to swap it out with a really good USB cable. Start to finish, it should take less than 15 minutes (well maybe an hour, because like all of us who have done this, you'll go back and forth 3 times in disbelief)..If you have invested in computer-based music, and you don't do this, then you're leaving musical performance that you paid for on the table. That's sad... and that's why I took the time to share my experiences with all of you. Don't let the lack of explainable theory keep you stuck in the land of mid-fi. Once you hear the difference, you can enjoy your music more than ever, and then still go back and try to understand it... but good luck... you'll need it. If any of you really do take the challenge,  then report back what happens. That would make me happy. Better yet, PM me as I don't expect to participate in this discussion any further..Bye guys. Happy Listening... I tried my best...


Edited by hifuguy - 8/16/12 at 9:43am
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