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O2 AMP + ODAC - Page 6

post #76 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

No one has ever said that it doesn't measure nicely. Proves nothing.

Well, it does prove that it is perfectly reproducing the music. Doesn't seem to me that you can go much further than that. smily_headphones1.gif
Quote:
You are one of those believers of no amp does or should sound any different and if it does it's flawed or wrong.
Yet, I'm going to presume you haven't listened to much gear, therefore, you don't trust your ears.

Double blind testing has demonstrated that ears aren't to be trusted. Seems to be true of noses as well: the case of wine pricing fooling the experts in to favouring cheaper wines thinking they had cost more.
Quote:
I don't subscribe to measurements yet, they do have their rightful place in the scheme of things. 

The O2 is a great value ODAC as well, However I've heard plenty amps that are better, of course, IMO. But you'll just chalk it up to my love for distortion. 

Well, yes.

But then again, I've a harmonic distortion filter and have found that even the 'euphonic' even-order distortions are unpleasant the more you ramp it up. There's also phase issues that can give a 3D effect (ie. affect the perception of soundstage) though dsp is better for that purpose. And let's not forget output impedance issues. On top of all that are matters of taste. I prefer to be 'in the orchestra' rather than in the audience, so those 3D phase effects might make me think an amp is 'better'. But strictly it's not.

My own theory is that some people are also just more suggestible than others, as is true of hypnotism. An amp's price, weight and largeness of capacitors could be a good vector of suggestion. Mix that in to the heady mix above and you can imagine the problems with reviewing amps sonically.
post #77 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by GL1TCH3D View Post

Has anyone paired the O2+ODAC with the HD800?
If so, how was it?
I'm thinking of getting the O2+ODAC as a temporary low budget system to run the HD800s.

 

It sounds good, but be warned that it's very bright.  The HD800 is a really bright can and the neutrality of the O2 does nothing to hide that.

post #78 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorriman View Post


Well, it does prove that it is perfectly reproducing the music. Doesn't seem to me that you can go much further than that. smily_headphones1.gif
Double blind testing has demonstrated that ears aren't to be trusted. Seems to be true of noses as well: the case of wine pricing fooling the experts in to favouring cheaper wines thinking they had cost more.
Well, yes.
But then again, I've a harmonic distortion filter and have found that even the 'euphonic' even-order distortions are unpleasant the more you ramp it up. There's also phase issues that can give a 3D effect (ie. affect the perception of soundstage) though dsp is better for that purpose. And let's not forget output impedance issues. On top of all that are matters of taste. I prefer to be 'in the orchestra' rather than in the audience, so those 3D phase effects might make me think an amp is 'better'. But strictly it's not.
My own theory is that some people are also just more suggestible than others, as is true of hypnotism. An amp's price, weight and largeness of capacitors could be a good vector of suggestion. Mix that in to the heady mix above and you can imagine the problems with reviewing amps sonically.

Yea, I am just gonna go ahead and disagree....Ok? We hear differently, fair?

It might measure perfectly, however it sounds flawed,imperfect,harsh,clinical,not musical,schitty,meh,different? It's just not distorted enough for my liking. tongue.gif

 

You never did answer my question. Have you been to a meet to test the waters? Just wanna know if you've tried anything from

the TOTL amp pool or even DACs?


Edited by paradoxper - 8/4/12 at 10:24am
post #79 of 3453

If an amp measures well, in this case the O2 measures VERY well and I have several other amps....that now sound relatively good but are definitlely colored and or influencing the source for sure....the O2 being as neutral as it is allows you to hear the source and hear what cans really sound like or can sound like.

 

Measurements if taken properly, dont lie....our brains, our moods, the time of day, our musical tastes all influnece how we hear.....our expectations.

 

Having some really great stuff their are days when nothing sounds good or pleases me...and I shut it off and go watch the sunset.....etc

 

Are there amps that are better than the O2, possibly, cost more, for sure...define better...weigh more, have more knobs, looks cool, is larger in size. etc...

 

But for the price and the invisibility of this amp ie beyond human hearing for $144....duh!!!

 

Amps that cost thousands more cant be more inaudible. They can have more stuff, more things, more lights, glowing mega buck NOS tubes etc....

 

The O2 is and will be a standard ie classic for years to come.

 

Alex

post #80 of 3453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

No one has ever said that it doesn't measure nicely. Proves nothing.

 

You are one of those believers of no amp does or should sound any different and if it does it's flawed or wrong.

Yet, I'm going to presume you haven't listened to much gear, therefore, you don't trust your ears.

 

I don't subscribe to measurements yet, they do have their rightful place in the scheme of things. 

 

The O2 is a great value ODAC as well, However I've heard plenty amps that are better, of course, IMO. But you'll just chalk it up to my love for distortion. 

How do you know you're not underestimating the effect of placebo and subjective bias? Did you do a ABX test? It might not even be because you love distortion - it may simply be pure psychological bias that everyone is subject to. I know an audiophile who tested several thousand dollar amps through a blind test. He claimed the O2 and ODAC outdid almost every amp/ DAC except one (I forgot which one). 

 

O2 & ODAC are basically about $50 dollars each in terms of material cost. The whole purpose of the design behind the two was to prove that inexpensive amps/ DAC can GET THE JOB DONE. Even if there are super expensive amps/ DAC that measure better than the O2/ ODAC, I doubt it will be a significant audible difference (unless it's colored). It certainly isn't worth the money. An amp's job is to amplify. A dac's job is to convert digital to analog. If people have some cash to blow, then that's completely fine. It's certainly none of our business (though I understand some objectivists take it too personally). But sometimes subjectivists harm the wallet of others, claiming crap about synergy and how you need at least a $200 dollar amp to drive a specific can. A load of BS. 

post #81 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

How do you know you're not underestimating the effect of placebo and subjective bias? Did you do a ABX test? It might not even be because you love distortion - it may simply be pure psychological bias that everyone is subject to. I know an audiophile who tested several thousand dollar amps through a blind test. He claimed the O2 and ODAC outdid almost every amp/ DAC except one (I forgot which one). 

 

O2 & ODAC are basically about $50 dollars each in terms of material cost. The whole purpose of the design behind the two was to prove that inexpensive amps/ DAC can GET THE JOB DONE. Even if there are super expensive amps/ DAC that measure better than the O2/ ODAC, I doubt it will be a significant audible difference (unless it's colored). It certainly isn't worth the money. An amp's job is to amplify. A dac's job is to convert digital to analog. If people have some cash to blow, then that's completely fine. It's certainly none of our business (though I understand some objectivists take it too personally). But sometimes subjectivists harm the wallet of others, claiming crap about synergy and how you need at least a $200 dollar amp to drive a specific can. A load of BS. 

Ok, I am gonna buy the all black O2/ODAC and call it a day. 

post #82 of 3453

Subjective bias is a part of our brain's working and should not be ignored. At the end of the day, no one will be listening to music blind. Claiming ODAC+O2's supremacy, that it's equal to everything else out there, is blissfully ignoring/disregarding your own (flawed as they may be) ears and brains, in the same vein that extreme subjectivists blissfully ignore/disregard measurements.

 

In my opinion, both measurements and subjective perception have a part to play. Look for better measured gears, audition them, compare them volume-matched with your current gear. If you enjoy your music significantly better with the latter gears, and if you have enough disposable income, why not? Should you really be ignoring your own inherent flaws? It's all about enjoyment at the end of the day.

 

tl;dr be open-minded


Btw I'm currently using O2 + ODAC as well, certainly won't stop me from auditioning great gears from the likes of Anedio, Violectric, Benchmark, Lavry, HeadAmp etc. Also, O2 is not perfect either http://scientistsaudio.blogspot.jp

post #83 of 3453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo-fi View Post

Subjective bias is a part of our brain's working and should not be ignored. At the end of the day, no one will be listening to music blind. Claiming ODAC+O2's supremacy, that it's equal to everything else out there, is blissfully ignoring/disregarding your own (flawed as they may be) ears and brains, in the same vein that extreme subjectivists blissfully ignore/disregard measurements.

 

In my opinion, both measurements and subjective perception have a part to play. Look for better measured gears, audition them, compare them volume-matched with your current gear. If you enjoy your music significantly better with the latter gears, and if you have enough disposable income, why not? Should you really be ignoring your own inherent flaws? It's all about enjoyment at the end of the day.

 

tl;dr be open-minded


Btw I'm currently using O2 + ODAC as well, certainly won't stop me from auditioning great gears from the likes of Anedio, Violectric, Benchmark, Lavry, HeadAmp etc. Also, O2 is not perfect either http://scientistsaudio.blogspot.jp

Agreed. I think both sides are exaggerating and sometimes taking things out of proportion. Without a doubt the O2/ ODAC are extremely good performers for the price. That was the whole point of their design after all. But it's totally understandable that if a person has enough "goods" with him, he can pay for something far more expensive, for various reasons, including portability, aesthetics, preferred coloration, etc. 

post #84 of 3453

Yay, more inexperienced people overconfident about things they have no knowledge or understanding of.  So nice to see.  I'd love to see what the world would look like if it was run by Nwavguy's minions.  Maybe a 5 year old would be president. 

post #85 of 3453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

Yay, more inexperienced people overconfident about things they have no knowledge or understanding of.  So nice to see.  I'd love to see what the world would look like if it was run by Nwavguy's minions.  Maybe a 5 year old would be president. 

I don't claim to be an expert with amp / dacs but I have been learning a lot these past few weeks. Hopefully, I'll be able to actually understand every aspect of measurement data. Not quite there yet though. But I know some people just blindly state opinions with no experience to back them up. It makes the world more confusing to live in. 

post #86 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

Yay, more inexperienced people overconfident about things they have no knowledge or understanding of.  So nice to see.  I'd love to see what the world would look like if it was run by Nwavguy's minions.  Maybe a 5 year old would be president. 

 

And everyone would be forced to use an OBJ2/ODAC. And wave little red books with the sayings of the great one. Those who refused would be subject to wearing a dunce cap and placards around their necks stating "audiophool", "decadent stupid rich", or "distortion lover", etc. It will be like an audio Cultural Revolution!


Edited by purrin - 8/4/12 at 10:39pm
post #87 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorriman View Post

My own theory is that some people are also just more suggestible than others

 

QFT.  Especially those that cite poor, flawed or misleading studies like those involving wine which in fact do measure differently.  As if throwing the baby out w/ the bathwater invalidates millions of years of aural and neural evolution.  Afterall, more people die from driving their own cars than from mass transportation.  Anyone not taking the bus, train or subway is obviously ignorant and operating under some undue psychological influence.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

I don't claim to be an expert with amp / dacs but I have been learning a lot these past few weeks. Hopefully, I'll be able to actually understand every aspect of measurement data. Not quite there yet though.

 

Careful.  People w/ better test gear and education than some have been doing this for decades and are more aware of what they still do not know than what they do.  A few part time hobbyists seem to be more certain of their knowledge after reading a blog than those that work and study these same issues for decades.  There often seems to be an epistemological problem with those that have a little bit of knowledge knowing everything versus those with a lot of knowledge who are more aware of what they do not know.  Tools and studies are useful but rarely definitive and universally comprehensive.  When you see someone making wild universal and absolute claims like some above, that should be a red flag to the critical mind.  So please educate yourself but do not presume to ever have it all figured out.


Edited by Anaxilus - 8/4/12 at 10:41pm
post #88 of 3453

Good to have you back Mike. 

post #89 of 3453

for S&G
post #90 of 3453
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

Good to have you back Mike. 

 

Thx, good to be back.  Are we in SS yet?  tongue_smile.gif

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