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O2 AMP + ODAC - Page 142

post #2116 of 3237
+1 with the above. Some gear is ridiculouslyl overpriced for what it is/does, there's no denying that. I applaud the O2's designer for exposing this and showing that it can be done differently. But there's a huge difference between doing that and becoming/attracting zealots who think the O2 is somehow the sum of all amplifiers. It's not. Cheap and it can compete with seriously more expensive gear but it's also limited, denying that does a disservice to the project imo. And last but not least, objectivism and musical enjoyment will always remain an uneasy marriage, not everything can be reduced to a graph.
post #2117 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

No one ever said that there weren't excesses in our culture.  Those exist almost anywhere that there's money to be made.  By the same token, excesses exist on the bottom end, too - by claiming that something cheap is just as good.

"Good" is a vague term. Of course there are specs that can be bettered, whether or not they matter is the question that Nwavguy answered. Reading through his blog also raised the confidence of many engineering oriented audio enthusiasts, it became easier to distinguish the boundaries between science and aesthetics and pure b.s. because suddenly everyone was willing to talk about these things.

Him being present or absent doesn't really matter IMO. His voice was heard and the O2 became an icon for his line of thinking.
That's all that matters.
post #2118 of 3237

I found the reaction to his "attitude" quite telling. He a professional engineer, and a lot of the people he was criticising quite frankly were not. Sure they engineered things for a living but they never worked in a professional enviroment with engineers before. When an engineer sees a design with a fault in it he must call it out, he'd be grossly negligent if he didn't. The feelings or the "good standing" of the original designer don't come into it. Likewise when an engineer, or any scientist, sees someone misusing math or misunderstanding some principle of their discipline they call them out. The vali thread was a great example of this. He behaved like a conscientious engineer while others thoroughly exposed their own ignorance (and worse) for all to see.

post #2119 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpower View Post
 

I found the reaction to his "attitude" quite telling. He a professional engineer, and a lot of the people he was criticising quite frankly were not. Sure they engineered things for a living but they never worked in a professional enviroment with engineers before. When an engineer sees a design with a fault in it he must call it out, he'd be grossly negligent if he didn't. The feelings or the "good standing" of the original designer don't come into it. Likewise when an engineer, or any scientist, sees someone misusing math or misunderstanding some principle of their discipline they call them out. The vali thread was a great example of this. He behaved like a conscientious engineer while others thoroughly exposed their own ignorance (and worse) for all to see.

 

One could also say that the culture between the O2 designer's methodology clashed with the audiophile community. In some fields of professionalism, negative and constructive criticism must be taken both during and after the design has been developed. The mindset is of one that focuses on improving the design by any means possible, regardless of who put the most effort in or how someone feels about it.

 

The mentioned culture however, is one only developed once you work in such an environment. For those whom are unfamiliar with said culture, they can see people coming off as brash, aggressive, and highly opinionated.

post #2120 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpower View Post
 

I found the reaction to his "attitude" quite telling. He a professional engineer, and a lot of the people he was criticising quite frankly were not. Sure they engineered things for a living but they never worked in a professional enviroment with engineers before. When an engineer sees a design with a fault in it he must call it out, he'd be grossly negligent if he didn't. The feelings or the "good standing" of the original designer don't come into it. Likewise when an engineer, or any scientist, sees someone misusing math or misunderstanding some principle of their discipline they call them out. The vali thread was a great example of this. He behaved like a conscientious engineer while others thoroughly exposed their own ignorance (and worse) for all to see.


Just an FYI, but IMHO, this violates our Professional Engineering Code of Ethics.

 

"Call them out?'  On a public forum/blog?  The only way that would be justified is in case of life-safety.  Even then, you better be d*mn sure and prepared to take it through to its conclusion.  The first step, is to give the original designer the benefit of doubt (at least in public, no matter what you personally think).  If you are contemplating going public with a design error, you contact him/her, find out the goals involved in the design, the decisions made, and the context with which any performance claims might have been made.  If something like an error-of-omission was made, then you allow the original designer to make good on it, first.

 

You also should not insult a Professional Engineer by equating one with, "or any scientist." ;)

post #2121 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post
 


Just an FYI, but IMHO, this violates our Professional Engineering Code of Ethics.

 

"Call them out?'  On a public forum/blog?  The only way that would be justified is in case of life-safety.  Even then, you better be d*mn sure and prepared to take it through to its conclusion.  The first step, is to give the original designer the benefit of doubt (at least in public, no matter what you personally think).  If you are contemplating going public with a design error, you contact him/her, find out the goals involved in the design, the decisions made, and the context with which any performance claims might have been made.  If something like an error-of-omission was made, then you allow the original designer to make good on it, first.

 

You also should not insult a Professional Engineer by equating one with, "or any scientist." ;)

Well if you want to stick to the Professional Engineering Code of Ethics you should also mention that he broke an even more fundamental rule of design criticism. Full disclosure! Who are you? Where do you live? How many X's have you designed? Whats your agenda? Everyone has an agenda, good-faith criticism of design is one of those audiophile myths you hear about. Are you using a Cloak of Anonymity? Remember the Grand Order of Professional Engineers has explicitly banned such cloaks.

 

Whether or not we may criticise "from the bushes" is left to the discretion of the Engineer, but it is frowned upon.

post #2122 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpower View Post
 

Well if you want to stick to the Professional Engineering Code of Ethics you should also mention that he broke an even more fundamental rule of design criticism. Full disclosure! Who are you? Where do you live? How many X's have you designed? Whats your agenda? Everyone has an agenda, good-faith criticism of design is one of those audiophile myths you hear about. Are you using a Cloak of Anonymity? Remember the Grand Order of Professional Engineers has explicitly banned such cloaks.

 

Whether or not we may criticise "from the bushes" is left to the discretion of the Engineer, but it is frowned upon.

 

I don't see why it matters who he is, except as a matter of curiosity and gossip. Maybe he's an alien who returned to his home planet like the founders of all the other religions. :tongue_smile: Whether he was right or wrong doesn't depend on that.

post #2123 of 3237
I'm sure this applied to NwAvGuy too, but my favourite quote from JDS Labs is:
http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=722
Quote:
It makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint to enable the latest features on a new device. Fortunately, we’re engineers and not marketers.
post #2124 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I'm sure this applied to NwAvGuy too, but my favourite quote from JDS Labs is:
http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=722

From a marketing standpoint it makes perfect sense to take people's money without actually giving them anything in return wink.gif

Fortunately we have engineers willing to call something b.s. when they see it.
post #2125 of 3237

But in the real-world a good Business must have a good balance of Engineers and Marketers. Of course you can tell which group have the strongest influence over how the company operates.

 

A business consists only of Engineers can create awesome stuff but unable to sell enough to make money; thus collapse.

 

A business consist only of Marketers will only be good at spreading hype on products but will never deliver.

 

I just notice the conversation is getting off-topic. No? (Or not, O2 and ODAC is NwAvGuy) lol

post #2126 of 3237

:biggrin:


Edited by tomb - 3/8/14 at 7:30pm
post #2127 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by headwhacker View Post

But in the real-world a good Business must have a good balance of Engineers and Marketers. Of course you can tell which group have the strongest influence over how the company operates.

A business consists only of Engineers can create awesome stuff but unable to sell enough to make money; thus collapse.

A business consist only of Marketers will only be good at spreading hype on products but will never deliver.

Marketers usually have the habit of over-committing. Unrealistic schedules, features that don't really make sense but somehow the "customer wants them!" (Guess who convinced the customer in the first place).

But, as you said, the Engineer can't sell. They're more like "take it or leave it."
But hey, if your market is majority enthusiasts, you don't need a lot of marketing to convince them.

Back to the topic.

WHO IS NWAVGUY? A vigilante? A crusader who fights all audiophile injustice?
Where does he live?
What does he eat for breakfast?
Who is he sleeping with?
Edited by proton007 - 3/8/14 at 8:02pm
post #2128 of 3237
Well NwAvGuy did get zero money from the ODAC and O2. XD
post #2129 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

But hey, if your market is majority enthusiasts, you don't need a lot of marketing to convince them.

 

Then you only limit your business to "niche". When economy collapse, niche business are the first to go away. As people will limit expenses to "essentials".  But then if you don't rely on your business as your only source of income, I guess it's fine. Altmann is the best example I can think of.

post #2130 of 3237
Quote:
Originally Posted by headwhacker View Post

Then you only limit your business to "niche". When economy collapse, niche business are the first to go away. As people will limit expenses to "essentials".  But then if you don't rely on your business as your only source of income, I guess it's fine. Altmann is the best example I can think of.

Better stock up then! smily_headphones1.gif
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