Just how much would a better amp improve my HD 650s? - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardilla 

The HD650 goes from midfi to highend with the right amp. Try it on the Woo WA22...
However, many would feel they got more VFM with an LCD2 and a cheaper amp. All depends on budget, and how much you like the sound sig. The right amp makes the HD 650 astonishing.

+1

when i had the WA6-SE, the HD 650s where just absolutely amazing. the 650s scale better than any other headphone i've tried thus far (Excluding the hd 800 and t1)

Hi,

I don't think the H650 scales as well as many say. They don't transform into a high end headphone either. I've noticed the HD650 doesn't improve a great deal when it comes to amping. The only big improvement is the bass which is kinda bloated to begin with. With proper amping the bass becomes tighter and more controlled, but still bloated. The sound becomes slightly clearer and a bit more detailed, but nothing major.

I've found the HD600 to scale a bit better, but then again neither amp scale as well as many claim. The bass of the HD600 improves more as it's leaner than it's bigger brothers. The improvements the HD650 had with amping are here but are more apparent. I don't know why but maybe it's due to the tuning of the driver? I'm not sure but I've just found the HD600 to scale more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X 

Hi,

 

I don't think the H650 scales as well as many say. They don't transform into a high end headphone either. I've noticed the HD650 doesn't improve a great deal when it comes to amping. The only big improvement is the bass which is kinda bloated to begin with. With proper amping the bass becomes tighter and more controlled, but still bloated. The sound becomes slightly clearer and a bit more detailed, but nothing major.

 

I've found the HD600 to scale a bit better, but then again neither amp scale as well as many claim. The bass of the HD600 improves more as it's leaner than it's bigger brothers. The improvements the HD650 had with amping are here but are more apparent. I don't know why but maybe it's due to the tuning of the driver? I'm not sure but I've just found the HD600 to scale more.

Exactly, some people would make you believe that HD650 go from crap to amazing depending on the amp, which is not true.  If you have a decent entry level amp, its more than good enough to bring them virtually to their full potential.  HD650 amping is just one of those typical over-exaggerations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin Morrow 

 

This depends on the different types of amps. Different types of balanced amps may affect the sound more over single ended. My HeadRom Triple Stack improved the soundstage a tad bit, but that was about it, it sounded just as good single ended on the BUDA.

Is the Buda a fully balanced amp or is it balanced by a splitter and a bridge - Like the new Yulong A18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X 

Hi,

 

I don't think the H650 scales as well as many say. They don't transform into a high end headphone either. I've noticed the HD650 doesn't improve a great deal when it comes to amping. The only big improvement is the bass which is kinda bloated to begin with. With proper amping the bass becomes tighter and more controlled, but still bloated. The sound becomes slightly clearer and a bit more detailed, but nothing major.

 

I've found the HD600 to scale a bit better, but then again neither amp scale as well as many claim. The bass of the HD600 improves more as it's leaner than it's bigger brothers. The improvements the HD650 had with amping are here but are more apparent. I don't know why but maybe it's due to the tuning of the driver? I'm not sure but I've just found the HD600 to scale more.

By looking at the amps in your sig.  It seems all those amp would roughly deliver the same amount of power + / - a few millie watts here and there.  Try going from a Burson to a B22 - or any one of those amps in your sig. to a 4 channel fully balanced B22.  There is a difference in power and the 650s will show you.

Hi,

There are other things that people have to consider as well such as the tone of the amp, transparency, detail, extension. All of which are mostly from the amp. The HD650 maybe resolving on it's own but pair it with the proper amp with enough power and a sound signature you like, and prepare for a treat. The sonic presentation will also depend on what type of amp you choose (balanced or single ended). The headphones take on any improvements from up the chain. Pair it with a good amp and a crappy source and no improvement will be heard or may in fact sound worse, but this is all common knowledge.

An example is with my Auditor. It drives the HD600 with absolute ease with gobs of power to spare, but the headphone does not scale up a lot. The HD600 takes on the sound characteristics of the amp and as such, the detail, transparency, and soundstage all improve. The Auditors signature is neutral with quick transients and a wide dynamic range. Some of these characteristics trickle into the HD600, but it's not major. You'll notice a bit more detail, but nothing like night and day.

It seems balanced drive with either the HD600 is the optimal solution. The sound is crisper with balanced drive and the soundstage is larger. Transients also seem to snap more, if that makes sense. My ROC drives the HD600 just a tad better than my Auditor and seems to open them up a bit more. It's not major but is there. Maybe a 10% difference in sound so the improvement is small and you really have to listen for it. It's so close that maybe they are equal in terms of drive, but being balanced may bring better separation and such.

The HD650 with balanced drive sounds the clearest yet. The HD650 when balanced seems to loose some of the muddiness to the sound and is slightly brighter with a more airy presentation. This is definitely a plus in my book. The HD650 in SE seems to be a muddy mess, but when balanced the sound does open up more. Transients do pop more and bass has a new level of control. It is a treat indeed.

I don't hate the HD650, it's a capable headphone, I don't care for it's slurred presentation. Even with the amping and sonic improvements it's just not enough to make me want to buy one. I have the T1 which sounds somewhat like a DT880/HD600/HD650 hybrid, but obviously much better.

prepreoman, I've heard the HD650 on a B22 and it still was not much better than my Auditor. The B22 is a beast of an amp and I wish I had the rack room for one, but when amping the HD650 and HD600 on it, the difference was not so big between my amps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by derbigpr 

Exactly, some people would make you believe that HD650 go from crap to amazing depending on the amp, which is not true.  If you have a decent entry level amp, its more than good enough to bring them virtually to their full potential.  HD650 amping is just one of those typical over-exaggerations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardilla 

Yup..If you haven't heard the hd650 do the leap, you haven't. No matter how many amps you've heard ,D
But it will still be the hd650. We are talking the last 10 %. But that's where they go from very good to just great...

I agree.  Most people are just hearing about 90% of what they can really do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by preproman 

 

Is the Buda a fully balanced amp or is it balanced by a splitter and a bridge - Like the new Yulong A18

Explain more. A splitter and a bridge? It has both RCA inputs and single ended outputs, as well as balanced in and balanced out, so no, not fully balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin Morrow 

 

Explain more. A splitter and a bridge? It has both RCA inputs and single ended outputs, as well as balanced in and balanced out, so no, not fully balanced.

Some amps gets its balanced out from a splitter and is cap coupled. 

@ OP, yes I knew you were joking.  

But..it applies to this situation more than you may realize.  =/

• I think Zombie X broke it down for you perfectly.  

•  Whoever said something about the E9 and comparisons to higher-end amps, that was the thread by Milosz last year (or the year before?) on fast-A/Bing an E9 vs. a Beta22, a M3 and some other amps.  It's worth checking out.

• Whoever said something about power and a beta22, what kind of power are you referring to that benefits the HD650?  The beta's "power" comes into play with low-imp phones mostly, I would think.  Something like LCD-2, etc.  For the HD650, an excellent OTL would also give it what it needs in terms of juice (more voltage swing).  It could still be just a few hundred milliwatts - take the Zanadeux for example, just 650mw into an HD650/600 load.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin Morrow 

 

This depends on the different types of amps. Different types of balanced amps may affect the sound more over single ended. My HeadRom Triple Stack improved the soundstage a tad bit, but that was about it, it sounded just as good single ended on the BUDA.

What do you mean different types of balanced amps?  

I suspect the HD650's renowned scalability is a relic of the past, when affordable components that had good synergy with it were limited. The only way to go was up, attributing the increase in quality with cost. The market is now flooded with quality components that can be combined in countless ways to achieve a signature that satisfies individual preferences. Spending megabucks is no longer a requisite if looking to build a system primarily around the HD650. Its ceiling (yes it has one, and it is not as vaunted as some would have you believe) can now be reached with modest expense. You just need to put it all together in a considered manner.

That said, everything in a chain has a bearing. A single component that degrades a previously cherished characteristic is significant. These changes may not be as critical to others, but finding the right balance can be such a delicate endeavour. One aspect is always compromised to gain in another. If the headphone's basic signature is agreeable enough to warrant fine tuning, these minute changes can make or break the presentation. If the headphones intrinsic signature is not to preference though, these subtle changes are irrelevant.

The OP needs to be more specific about what he is after. Those details determine whether the advice should be to get different headphones, or persevere with the HD650 and add components that accentuate particular strengths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by olor1n 

I suspect the HD650's renowned scalability is a relic of the past, when affordable components that had good synergy with it were limited. The only way to go was up, attributing the increase in quality with cost. The market is now flooded with quality components that can be combined in countless ways to achieve a signature that satisfies individual preferences. Spending megabucks is no longer a requisite if looking to build a system primarily around the HD650. Its ceiling (yes it has one, and it is not as vaunted as some would have you believe) can now be reached with modest expense. You just need to put it all together in a considered manner.

 

That said, everything in a chain has a bearing. A single component that degrades a previously cherished characteristic is significant. These changes may not be as critical to others, but finding the right balance can be such a delicate endeavour. One aspect is always compromised to gain in another. If the headphone's basic signature is agreeable enough to warrant fine tuning, these minute changes can make or break the presentation. If the headphones intrinsic signature is not to preference though, these subtle changes are irrelevant.

 

The OP needs to be more specific about what he is after. Those details determine whether the advice should be to get different headphones, or persevere with the HD650 and add components that accentuate particular strengths.

What an interesting post! Intriguing and challenging. I like it!