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post #91 of 191

I agree that source and amp are always better to invest in first. In my case I think Im in a good place with those. Really looking at tweaking down the top end some more.

 

I suspect you don't care for them Blackmore after your post on the Takatsuki thread :), but Ive found the Shuggy CV181 has good synergy with the Grado's.

post #92 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrahman View Post

 

Well theres more than just frequency response to look at, measurement wise.  But I agree some things aren't captured by the measurements and I said that...

 

Now if the measurements were close, I suppose you could make the argument that perhaps these immeasurable aspects of sq (like timbre) tip the balance...  Which is probably why so many people bicker about the T1 vs HD800 vs LCD2 etc, since they measure relatively closer to each other.

 

But given that thd, square waves, decay, FR, waterfall plots etc of the ps1000 all fall behind the lcd2 and hd800.  And moreover, looking at the graphs of many other flagships like the HE series, Stax, etc  they all seem to flank or approach a common "ideal" curve on these graphs, which the ps1000 seems to be straying away from.  This suggests that they are approaching a common goal of fidelity, where the PS1000's measurements seems to be aiming elsewhere.  So then, I have to question what are the odds that the PS1000's individual timbre fidelity could make up for all these other equally important factors.

 

I think everyone should use their ears as the final specific test of fidelity, where the measurements should act as sensitive tests.

 

you say the measurements show that the ps1000 is not a "high fidelity" headphone, yet you go on to say that "people should use their ears as the final specific test of fidelity". it's not uncommon in the forum threads to find listening impressions that diverge from what the measurements depict. so if the ps1000 sounds "true" to the listener despite what the measurements show, then doesn't that ultimately render the measurements irrelevant? smile.gif


Edited by shimmer n roar - 7/11/12 at 9:09am
post #93 of 191

First, I am disappointed and then don't care. I can go and repeat myself, but I will not, cos you can find my impressions somewhere up here, if you like of course.

Where I am really interested in, are the opinions of those who can compare earlier and present production pairs in the same system. When I auditioned them, the pair was matte, middle production I believe, but the one I got, was polished, which was made / finished / bought last April. Whats the reason of that, cosmetics only? Hmm, I dont know, really...

 

About the tubes. Well, they are amp depended, at least that’s what my experience with my Cary, he just don’t like those Chinese made tubes. I tried Sophia's and Shuggy's, but both were from bad to not good enough, but at the last meet we had, Sophia's Royals 300B were great in Zanden, while I don’t care for them in my Cary. I believe some amps don’t get improved much with tube rolling and when I rolled some in Zanden, while I noticed some changes, they were not like day and night, but Cary is more responsive, but then again, they are differ amps to begin with.

 

THX

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Raal View Post

I agree that source and amp are always better to invest in first. In my case I think Im in a good place with those. Really looking at tweaking down the top end some more.

 

I suspect you don't care for them Blackmore after your post on the Takatsuki thread :), but Ive found the Shuggy CV181 has good synergy with the Grado's.


Edited by Blackmore - 7/11/12 at 6:45am
post #94 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrahman View Post

 

Right, I also said that.  I was talking about the claims that it was more accurate than the lcd2 and hd800, which has little to do with what people's preferences are.


Well, the LCD-2 is nowhere accurate IMHO. Just pay attention to how bad it sounds with orchestral music. It's crowdy and congested. Their tonal balance leaves much to desire as well. The bass is flat but midrange is not and the trebles are pretty muted. Decent sounding planars are HiFiMan HE-6 but not these.

 

Grado cables are OK. I compared once well burnt in GS1000, one with stock cable, another with Black Dragon. I prefered the former due to better microdetail retrieval. The Black Dragon had kind of rumbling bass which might be attractive but it was not what I would call transparency. Some time later I compared the GS1000 to the GS1000i which shares the same 8-wire cable with the PS1000. This time the newer design showed more open highs and a bit better clarity. So, re-cabling is the last thing I would do to my PS1000. However I consider replacing the jack, as the original one has almost completely worn out contact plating.

post #95 of 191

I  can only agree with majkel what he wrote about LCD2. I have the same opinion. if sombody want LCD2 sing then he have to own some amp which open them a lot and it means special modified amp for their character.

post #96 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post


Well, the LCD-2 is nowhere accurate IMHO. Just pay attention to how bad it sounds with orchestral music. It's crowdy and congested. Their tonal balance leaves much to desire as well. The bass is flat but midrange is not and the trebles are pretty muted. Decent sounding planars are HiFiMan HE-6 but not these.

 

 

Does that mean the HD800 is also nowhere near accurate because it's got an overly enhanced soundstage and is too distant sounding for rock/metal music?

You need to try them on a better amp because if that's the way you hear it then either its personal preference, not the LCD's fault, or you need to hear them on a better system.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knopi View Post

I  can only agree with majkel what he wrote about LCD2. I have the same opinion. if sombody want LCD2 sing then he have to own some amp which open them a lot and it means special modified amp for their character.

 


No 'special modified' amp is required just a good quality one. My Audio-gd Master-6 is designed to be neutral and without any unwanted colorations and still sounds superb with the LCD's. Soundstage depth is very good, width is decent as well. Bass is never bloated or flabby or anything other than superb and no darkness at all.


Edited by nigeljames - 7/11/12 at 7:59am
post #97 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeljames View Post

 

Does that mean the HD800 is also nowhere near accurate because it's got an overly enhanced soundstage and is too distant sounding for rock/metal music.

 

 

I think sound stage and imaging are definitely two examples of subjective accuracy vs inaccuracy. I can't comment on the HD800s since I've yet to hear them, but I've heard speakers that have a very narrow sound stage just as I have speakers that have such an unnaturally large one that it almost sounds as if they are out of phase. I've also heard examples of speakers that image both well and poorly. If you've spent time with live music, you can get a feel for what sounds natural, or accurate, and what doesn't. The type of presentation I prefer might be completely opposite of your preferences, and we make our purchase decisions accordingly. 

post #98 of 191

I heard the LCD-2 with at least 3 different amps, one OTL. There was the same LCD-2 sound each time, with differences regarding mainly bass richness and control. And the one that "matched" the LCD-2 well (actually all three did) was painfully unlistenable with the Ultrasone Edition 10 which I rate above the Audez'e.

 

I wouldn't use a kind of music that depends strongly on amplifying equipment as a reference. Rock and metal might sound different from one place and event to another. Once it sounds more like LCD-2, another time kind of Grado RS1. The references that I can store in my memory are human voices and mechanical instruments played without amplification in various places. This is what I refer to when judging a headphone in terms of accuracy, and the HD800 is IMHO much closer than the LCD-2. I could even find a combination of a headphone setup based on the HD800 playing back the right album as being a good reflection of the live concert sound with participation of this singer.

post #99 of 191

Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post


Well, the LCD-2 is nowhere accurate IMHO. Just pay attention to how bad it sounds with orchestral music. It's crowdy and congested. Their tonal balance leaves much to desire as well. The bass is flat but midrange is not and the trebles are pretty muted. Decent sounding planars are HiFiMan HE-6 but not these.

 

Grado cables are OK. I compared once well burnt in GS1000, one with stock cable, another with Black Dragon. I prefered the former due to better microdetail retrieval. The Black Dragon had kind of rumbling bass which might be attractive but it was not what I would call transparency. Some time later I compared the GS1000 to the GS1000i which shares the same 8-wire cable with the PS1000. This time the newer design showed more open highs and a bit better clarity. So, re-cabling is the last thing I would do to my PS1000. However I consider replacing the jack, as the original one has almost completely worn out contact plating.

 

So with regard to fidelity only...

 

I think you're suggesting that the midrange FR is not flat since you referenced the bass being flat.  Again, FR is not everything.  That being said the LCD2's midrange FR is ruler flat and its midrange waterfall plot is one of the most impressive I have seen.  It may or may not best the HE6 on a proper set up, but this is a ps1000 thread and w/ regard to FR the ps1000 is abysmally poor.  So I'm not sure what your suggesting...  

 

With orchestral music I agree its not ideal, but it still performs better than the ps1000 which is the real discussion here.  Just like all headphones, the lcd2 struggles to widen its soundstage to hd800 levels.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmer n roar View Post

 

you say the measurements show that the ps1000 is not a "high fidelity" headphone, but then you say that people should use their ears as the "final specific test of fidelity". so if the ps1000 sounds "true" to the listener, then doesn't that ultimately make the measurements irrelevant? smile.gif

No, this is a matter of difference in meaning between specificity and sensitivity.  

post #100 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrahman View Post

 

With orchestral music I agree its not ideal, but it still performs better than the ps1000 which is the real discussion here.

I completely disagree. For me the PS1000 are amongst the best headphones for classical while the LCD-2 are just bad. All I can stand on them are small ensembles with several instruments at best. HD800 is no reference in terms of soundstage. AKG K1000 are in their own league regarding soundstage and no other headphone comes close, independent from driver technology.

post #101 of 191
Thread Starter 

Remember, everything is subject. Someone may like iBuds over the HD800 (I know a few people that do). smile.gif

post #102 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrahman View Post

No, this is a matter of difference in meaning between specificity and sensitivity.  

 

could you please explain what you mean by this? smile.gif

post #103 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post

I completely disagree. For me the PS1000 are amongst the best headphones for classical while the LCD-2 are just bad. All I can stand on them are small ensembles with several instruments at best. HD800 is no reference in terms of soundstage. AKG K1000 are in their own league regarding soundstage and no other headphone comes close, independent from driver technology.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoPS1000.pdf

 

I think this says enough. Extreme "U" shape (with barely any sub-bass and rolled off higher treble), horrible 30Hz and 300Hz square wave responses and poor %THD noise. Hardly what I'd consider "fidelity". Again, to my ears they sound fine (though I still prefer the RS1s) and a good step up from the GS1000s. But technically proficient, neither my ears, nor the measurements can say that. YMMV of course...but the measurements kinda stick.

post #104 of 191

I think with these Grado threads it might be easier to just put a disclaimer in the OP saying, "Yes, we know Grados measure like crap..."

 

It would save all the same repetitive posts from occurring every time and we could actually focus on other aspects of these awesome headphones. 

post #105 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

I think with these Grado threads it might be easier to just put a disclaimer in the OP saying, "Yes, we know Grados measure like crap..."

 

It would save all the same repetitive posts from occurring every time and we could actually focus on other aspects of these awesome headphones. 

LoL, I'm a big Grado fan. I've owned almost every John Grado headphone made (except for the GS/PS1000) and really had a blast with them.

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