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Grado PS1000: The Legendary Flagship (Review) - Page 8

post #106 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

LoL, I'm a big Grado fan. I've owned almost every John Grado headphone made (except for the GS/PS1000) and really had a blast with them.

 

Same here :)

post #107 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

I think with these Grado threads it might be easier to just put a disclaimer in the OP saying, "Yes, we know Grados measure like crap..."

 

It would save all the same repetitive posts from occurring every time and we could actually focus on other aspects of these awesome headphones. 

 

oh god yes. i find the measurements v hearing debate so tiresome. as john atkinson wrote in his article about measuring loudspeakers, "It is important, therefore, to keep in the back of your mind that to make "objective" measurements involves subjective choices!"

post #108 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmer n roar View Post

 

oh god yes. i find the measurements v hearing debate so tiresome. as john atkinson wrote in his article about measuring loudspeakers, "It is important, therefore, to keep in the back of your mind that to make "objective" measurements involves subjective choices!"

 

Could not agree more. Grado clearly takes a different approach to their headphones and I am thankful for that. There are plenty of options out there for those who want the most technically proficient headphones that are masters of fidelity and accuracy...Grados are more of an art form and focus on re-creating an organic auditory experience, IMO. I've had a few email exchanges with them discussing the way they go about things and it was a revelation to me. As I said to someone in a PM recently, John Grado - and Joseph before him - are HUGELY respected in the music and arts community and they have many friends in high places (e.g. Julliard School, noted musicians/performers) whose input they seek out and incorporate into their designs. It's pretty much accepted that they don't measure well...so I really don't see the point of going on and on about it. 

post #109 of 191

Here is the FR graph comparison. Talking about rolled-off treble?? LOL. Look what happens on the HD800 when you remove 1/3 octave smoothing of data. It seems the HD800 don't play anything around 12kHz.

graphCompare.php?graphType=-1&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=2151

 

And the THD respectively

graphCompare.php?graphType=1&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=2151

 

InnerFidelity THD graphs are something that I don't understand. When you measure with a single frequency, all that matters as distortion are multiplied frequency stripes. The third harmonic is lower on the PS1000. The second is lower on the HD800. If you care about the noise floor on these graphs which you shouldn't, then it looks better on the PS1000.

 

500Hz square is about the same for both, with the PS1000 having higher overshoot which only means that you have to pay more attention to damping factor of the amplifier. Same thing with 50Hz. The bass starts with slight overshoot due to no damping of the transducer in the PS1000 and on the HD800 it rises like it was over-damped. The difference is that you can try to control undamped transducer electrically with some success but you cannot un-damp an over-damped one this way. This will always be slowed down on transients.


Edited by majkel - 7/11/12 at 11:57pm
post #110 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

Could not agree more. Grado clearly takes a different approach to their headphones and I am thankful for that. There are plenty of options out there for those who want the most technically proficient headphones that are masters of fidelity and accuracy...Grados are more of an art form and focus on re-creating an organic auditory experience, IMO. I've had a few email exchanges with them discussing the way they go about things and it was a revelation to me. As I said to someone in a PM recently, John Grado - and Joseph before him - are HUGELY respected in the music and arts community and they have many friends in high places (e.g. Julliard School, noted musicians/performers) whose input they seek out and incorporate into their designs. It's pretty much accepted that they don't measure well...so I really don't see the point of going on and on about it. 

 

Absolutely... all that matters is... how they sound - and they sound like "real, live music."  

post #111 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post

Here is the FR graph comparison. Talking about rolled-off treble?? LOL. Look what happens on the HD800 when you remove 1/3 octave smoothing of data. It seems the HD800 don't play anything around 12kHz.

graphCompare.php?graphType=-1&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=2151

 

And the THD respectively

graphCompare.php?graphType=1&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=2151

 

InnerFidelity THD graphs are something that I don't understand. When you measure with a single frequency, all that matters as distortion are multiplied frequency stripes. The third harmonic is lower on the PS1000. The second is lower on the HD800. If you care about the noise floor on these graphs which you shouldn't, then it looks better on the PS1000.

 

500Hz square is about the same for both, with the PS1000 having higher overshoot which only means that you have to pay more attention to damping factor of the amplifier. Same thing with 50Hz. The bass starts with slight overshoot due to no damping of the transducer in the PS1000 and on the HD800 it rises like it was over-damped. The difference is that you can try to control undamped transducer electrically with some success but you cannot un-damp an over-damped one this way. This will always be slowed down on transients.

Those troughs (at 11kHz) are resonances in the dummy's head where the treble reverberates (i.e. not real). But the PS1000 really loses treble energy at around 11kHz and still, the lack of any real sub bass and a big mid-bass hump are still there. And then there's the ear piercing lower treble from 5-10kHz. At low volume its ok, but crank up the volume and ouch. My ears rang for a few hours after listening to them for only 30 minutes.

 

The square wave plots are not the same (not the 30 and not the 300Hz). The 300Hz square waves are night and day. I strongly recommend you watch the videos that Tyll posted to explain what they mean. Basically the HD800's 300Hz plot is darn good while the PS1000's spikes way to high initially and then never really settles down...then there's the distortion. blink.gif

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurement-proceedures-frequency-response


Edited by MacedonianHero - 7/12/12 at 6:45pm
post #112 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

Those troughs (at 11kHz) are resonances in the dummy's head where the treble reverberates (i.e. not real). But the PS1000 really loses treble energy at around 11kHz and still, the lack of any real sub bass and a big mid-bass hump are still there. And then there's the ear piercing lower treble from 5-10kHz. At low volume its ok, but crank up the volume and ouch. My ears rang for a few hours after listening to them for only 30 minutes.

 


OK, so it looks like we shouldn't care for these FR graphs because there are regions where they are not valid. Why no warning on the graphs about this?! If another headphone has no trough at 11kHz what does this mean - they have an actual peak there compensating the dummy head resonance or it appears somewhere else including nowhere as another possibility? It says "compensated" which I understand there was a correction made to the data so that the dummy head FR is subtracted from the measurement. Blaming the dummy head for further issues makes no sense if we want to take more information from these graphs than assessing that something is bass-light or mid-centric for instance.

 

Regarding loud listenind - I agree. I've chosen the PS1000 because I get all the impression of music at lower volume than I would obtain using more flat sounding headphones. That was my problem with AKG K601. I had to listen to it really loud to feel like experiencing live performance with readability of all nuances and impact. The K701 behave similarily and both make me partly deaf after an hour long listening session. This is nothing more than loudness curves working for my ears, and there is a lot of headphones these days equalized this way, including the HD800, T1, DT990, D7000 and others.


Edited by majkel - 7/13/12 at 5:48am
post #113 of 191

is it wrong not to care? wink.gif 

post #114 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmer n roar View Post

is it wrong not to care? wink.gif

lol

post #115 of 191

Some pretty incredible sound... coming from my PS1000's right now - SRV "Blues at Sunrise" into and out of my...  iPod > Pure i20 > WA6 SEm > PS1000's...   set up!!!

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/570809/grado-ps500s-new-grados/944

 

You will just have to try them once with the right set up... and... you'll "get it!!!"  

 

Also... it makes a huge difference in their sound - making sure you're driving them with the right set up... and... have them positioned right on your head / ears.  The bass is either clear, or not... and... the treble is either natural, or not (strident), depending one these factors.


Edited by Gradofan2 - 7/13/12 at 8:54am
post #116 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradofan2 View Post

Some pretty incredible sound... coming from my PS1000's right now - SRV "Blues at Sunrise" into and out of my...  iPod > Pure i20 > WA6 SEm > PS1000's...   set up!!!

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/570809/grado-ps500s-new-grados/944

 

You will just have to try them once with the right set up... and... you'll "get it!!!"  

 

Also... it makes a huge difference in their sound - making sure you're driving them with the right set up... and... have them positioned right on your head / ears.  The bass is either clear, or not... and... the treble is either natural, or not (strident), depending one these factors.

 

So nice to see someone using the Pure I20 dock...that's one of the best purchases I've ever made in this hobby. I'll have to try mine with headphones...I had been using it with my AudioEngine speakers until they died recently :(  Great little piece, though, especially for those of us who have lossless files on our iPods. 

post #117 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

 

So nice to see someone using the Pure I20 dock...that's one of the best purchases I've ever made in this hobby. I'll have to try mine with headphones...I had been using it with my AudioEngine speakers until they died recently :(  Great little piece, though, especially for those of us who have lossless files on our iPods. 

 

Yes... I'm amazed at how great the small DAC in the Pure i20 iPod Dock sounds... and... how it improves the sound of the PS1000's - very clear, detailed, and spacious without excessive bass boom, or strident highs.  While I'm sure there are many other DAC / Amp combos, that optimize the sound of the PS1000's - I was just very surprised that the combo of the i20 and the WA6 SEm was one of those.  And... I love the i20's flexibility to send the raw digital signal to an outboard DAC, like a CD transport.

 

And... of course... it's very convenient to store your music library on the iPod.  It's an "experiment" for me to see if I want to invest in a larger music server - unfortunately, those with a SSD (rather than a HDD) and the technology to maintain very low noise and jitter are very few... and still pretty expensive.   I've been looking at those offered by Pacific Valve - though they're not Apple / iTunes based.  I really like the simplicity and interface of the Apple / iTunes technology, despite the fact that iTunes doesn't seem to mesh well with PC's (seems to ad a lot of overhead) - I refuse to pay the premium for Apple PC's.  

post #118 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post

 

OK, so it looks like we shouldn't care for these FR graphs because there are regions where they are not valid. Why no warning on the graphs about this?! If another headphone has no trough at 11kHz what does this mean - they have an actual peak there compensating the dummy head resonance or it appears somewhere else including nowhere as another possibility? It says "compensated" which I understand there was a correction made to the data so that the dummy head FR is subtracted from the measurement. Blaming the dummy head for further issues makes no sense if we want to take more information from these graphs than assessing that something is bass-light or mid-centric for instance.

 

but seriously, that's a good point you make. selectively interpreting headphone measurements defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. frown.gif


Edited by shimmer n roar - 7/14/12 at 3:02am
post #119 of 191

If a measurement includes a very small but known problem zone - like that HD800 dip at 11k because of the measurement head - you don’t need to throw out the entire measurement. You just got to make sure you can explain the reason for the one tiny anomaly.

 

@Gradofan2. Apple’s margins for their laptops and iMacs are high but I guarantee that the $1700 for the PS1000 has an even greater markup (and has much worse build quality and QC) than a $1700 Mac. I guess, in a larger sense, I find it a little interesting how we all pick and choose what types of items we are willing to pay high markups for.

post #120 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by majkel View Post


Well, the LCD-2 is nowhere accurate IMHO. Just pay attention to how bad it sounds with orchestral music. It's crowdy and congested. Their tonal balance leaves much to desire as well. The bass is flat but midrange is not and the trebles are pretty muted. Decent sounding planars are HiFiMan HE-6 but not these.

 

Grado cables are OK. I compared once well burnt in GS1000, one with stock cable, another with Black Dragon. I prefered the former due to better microdetail retrieval. The Black Dragon had kind of rumbling bass which might be attractive but it was not what I would call transparency. Some time later I compared the GS1000 to the GS1000i which shares the same 8-wire cable with the PS1000. This time the newer design showed more open highs and a bit better clarity. So, re-cabling is the last thing I would do to my PS1000. However I consider replacing the jack, as the original one has almost completely worn out contact plating.

 

 

i thought i was the only one that thought lcd2(even lcd3) was bad.  

 

 

 

ok, black dragon is copper maybe gs1000 match better with a sliver cable?  and so does ps1000?  what about signal end vs balanced? 


Edited by fhuang - 7/14/12 at 6:11am
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