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Do Objective Headphone Measurements Correlate to the Audiophile's Subjective Experience? - Page 8

post #106 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

 

I think it's great to discuss what you did here, but I really don't think there is anything that can be inferred or concluded based on this study. 

 

I think there is. Headphone measurements have little to do with how people like or dislike the sound of them. So IMO it was a success. Let's keep enjoying what we enjoy and not worry ourselves with how they measure.

post #107 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

 

Absolutely nothing wrong w/ sharing experiences and impressions.  I find some random commentaries the equivalent of saying the sky is green sometimes but whatever.  

 

Do consider that some here consider this more than a hobby.  There are many music and audio engineering professionals on this site that do it for a living.  Just because they are professionals also doesn't mean they have infinite time and money to select the most appropriate gear.  So how better to suit the needs of this segment?

 

 

Absolutely...I love the fact that there are so many varied backgrounds and approaches to the world of audio here. I have been in audio for a while, but knew next to nothing about the head-fi side of things until about six months ago. Now nearly my (audio) focus is on headphones, headamps and the like. That wouldn't have been possible if not for the incredible diversity of this site's members. 

 

I do think the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable is a lost one, but that's certainly not unique to head-fi. 

post #108 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

 

Absolutely...I love the fact that there are so many varied backgrounds and approaches to the world of audio here. I have been in audio for a while, but knew next to nothing about the head-fi side of things until about six months ago. Now nearly my (audio) focus is on headphones, headamps and the like. That wouldn't have been possible if not for the incredible diversity of this site's members. 

 

I do think the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable is a lost one, but that's certainly not unique to head-fi. 

 

When a thread is moving as fast as this, and you have a lot of opinions to express, it's not worth spending double the time dressing up your posts and making them look pretty.

post #109 of 193
There's never a good excuse for being impolite. smily_headphones1.gif
post #110 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

 

When a thread is moving as fast as this, and you have a lot of opinions to express, it's not worth spending double the time dressing up your posts and making them look pretty.

 

Agree to disagree :)

post #111 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

There's never a good excuse for being impolite. smily_headphones1.gif

 

The line between politeness and honesty is very often a sliding scale depending on who's asking.

post #112 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

 

Oh there are people that do that.  I've had more than my share of tussles with those folks. There are also those that see that when it's not there.  Hyper-sensitives.  That's why I don't associate w/ any of the extremists.

 

lol! i might just have to quote this in my sig. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJNeg View Post

 

Very well said rhythm.

 

Measurements don't lie. Reviewers can say this, and marketing can say that, but measurements are always grounded in reality. Having the ability to test and measure equipment is what helps us sniff out the BS.  This doesn't mean you have to prefer a perfectly flat FR, but you should at least be aware of the colorations that you're experiencing.

 

measurements may not lie but they can be inaccurate and therefore misleading. placing your faith in a measuring methodology that may not be stringently applied or flawed, and in results that are not repeatable or subject to peer review against an agreed standard, is not all that different from accepting someone else's opinion as the fact of the matter.


Edited by shimmer n roar - 6/18/12 at 1:53am
post #113 of 193
Thread Starter 

Just curious. Which headphones do you own and really like and which headphones do you not like? What are your musical preferences? What aspects of your favorite headphones do you like. This question also goes to k3oxkjo.


Edited by purrin - 6/17/12 at 8:03pm
post #114 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

[emphasis added]

 

It depends on how you interpret the results.  Biased compared to what?  To me it would be hard to imagine that there's not some effect from group self-selection, not to mention some or most people having seen some of the measurement data and/or discussions before, group think, and so on.  Even comparing the participant pool to the group of "advanced headphone hobbyist" may show some significant differences—the participant pool is more interested on average in headphone measurements and may be more sensitive to resonances and some other odd artifacts (hence maybe why they are sticking around there).

 

But anyway, purrin's said that this is an informal affair and hasn't overstated the results, so that's that.

 

When you have results that significant, with some reasonable confidence, conclusions you draw based on results from the surveyed group may still be very applicable to a more general population.  If nothing else, the results are interesting, but I'd think that there's more weight here than just that.

 

 

 

 

what i was trying to get across was that i don't think that there is a preconceived "essential" bias among the members that defines the forum as "objectively better = subjectively better" in all cases.  sure, we're all individually biased, and some are more vocal than others.  my personal favorite headphones don't measure that well but were not included in the polling.  i don't care if my headphones measure great, but would like to try to understand why the headphones sound the way they do.  if there's any inherent bias, "wanting to learn" would be it IMO.  


Edited by fishski13 - 6/17/12 at 9:57pm
post #115 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Just curious. Which headphones do you own and really like and which headphones do you not like? What are your musical preferences? What aspects of your favorite headphones do you like. This question also goes to k3oxkjo.

 

i currently own the grado sr-60, sr-225i and the a-t w3000anv, and like them for a variety of reasons, some of which are intangible and not confined to sound alone. i didn't like the hd800 and t1 enough to want to own either. i liked the lcd-2 but found it too unwieldy. i like a variety of musical genres for a host of reasons. smile.gif


Edited by shimmer n roar - 6/18/12 at 1:53am
post #116 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishski13 View Post

 

what i was trying to get across was that i don't think that there is a preconceived "essential" bias among the members that defines the forum as "objectively better = subjectively better" in all cases.  sure, we're all individually biased, and some are more vocal than others.  my personal favorite headphones don't measure that well but were not included in the polling.  i don't care if my headphones measure great, but would like to try to understand why the headphones sound the way they do.  if there's any inherent bias, "wanting to learn" would be it IMO.  

 

I've got you now.

 

As you say, it definitely won't apply "in all cases."  There could still be some net effect that would show up in the average and standard deviation (and other statistics not taken), even if they may not be large and most probably nowhere near enough to overturn preferences like the ED8 being the least popular, which was my point.


Edited by mikeaj - 6/17/12 at 10:15pm
post #117 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by swbf2cheater View Post

Look at the Philips Fidelio L1 charts.
Fidelio L1s are average at best. Bass head cans and nothing else.
post #118 of 193
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

On a side note, I'm a little skeptical of the significance of some midrange/treble CSD anomalies (not the more egregious cases), considering the time scale and auditory masking when actual music is being played.  I mean, cleaner is probably better, but how much better?  Are there any papers on this?  I could be very wrong, and my intuition does say that it's probably more important than a lot of other things people care about, but maybe I'll just have to listen for myself with more headphones.

 

You are not wrong. That's because you are actually thinking about how to interpret the graphs, which is what I hoped people would at least do. (I guess people who have already made up their minds have already made up their minds.) There's a little art in interpreting the graphs - which will become less of an art as you hear more headphones and recognize the relationship between the patterns in the graphs and specific aspects of headphones' behaviors. Over time and with more experience, we start to recognize patterns as incompatible, compatible, or benign to our own subjective experience.

 

There are two headphones with poor CSD results which I like (AKG Sextetts and W3000ANV). The masking effect does come into play. And as you said, there are some egregious cases which I find difficult such as the HD700's 5.5k and sympathetic 11kHz peak (which IMO is both subjectively painful to hear and objectively painful to see.)


Edited by purrin - 6/18/12 at 9:03am
post #119 of 193
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Agreed that some samples were too small, but it's important to understand the point of this study. It's not a popularity contest with these headphones. If a headphone was rated 2.0, that doesn't mean that everyone voted 2.0 for it. There was substantial variation.

 

The point of this study is as follows:

 

  1. Is there correlation of certain measurement patterns to headphones which on average are subjectively rated good or bad?
  2. If there is, could it be possible that measurements are of use?

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of measurement patterns and behaviors which I feel people would find very interesting once they understood how they correlated with the subjective experience. One of the more interesting things I've come across: the varied and polar reactions toward the T1 and DT1350. Each one measures differently! LOL I just got in a third DT1350 today. TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the other two. 

 

Measurements also help to solve huge subjective discrepancies like this!

 

In blue, all that proves is that we can't fully trust single measurements, since another model may have less distortion, less noise, and more extended FR, or the adverse, in theory.

 

Looking at Sonove, Goldenears, innerfidelity, and custom IEM manufacturers, the measurements deviate quite a lot too.

post #120 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

In blue, all that proves is that we can't fully trust single measurements, since another model may have less distortion, less noise, and more extended FR, or the adverse, in theory.

 

Looking at Sonove, Goldenears, innerfidelity, and custom IEM manufacturers, the measurements deviate quite a lot too.


No...you're looking at it wrong.


What it proves is the manufacturers low standards in managing quality control.

 

I have seen many a stock T50RP measured and they measure extremely similarly.  The fact that the T1 (beyer) and the DT1350 (Oh...ANOTHER beyer) have such variances simply proves that beyer is an utter failure at putting out a decent standardized headphone model.

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