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Sennheiser HD700 Review - Page 5

post #61 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

It's amazing to me that anyone would consider this an Objectivist review.  Post some pretty colors and subjectivists cry.  Post listening impressions and objectivists whine.  Both can go to h*ll where they were meant for each other.

 

Btw, it's how they measure when you hear something wrong that counts.  Or why someone might not hear anything wrong at all that should be considered!

 

Every headphone and ancillary device I've heard has had something wrong with it.  The lack of critical listening impressions is suspicious to me and something of a disservice IMHO.  Having technical reasons and data to explain these problems is a good thing.  

 

Can't please everybody, that's for sure!

 

In regards to the bolded part, check my sig cool.gif

post #62 of 203

I appreciate that you've spent time and effort testing and writing your thoughts on the HD700's but it is just your opinion and techniques. I'm sure the designer has a completely different set of results too. So whos wrong?**

 

 

 

**no one normal_smile%20.gif

 

All I'm saying is people need to hear them, ideally with their own equipment, not judge them without even listening to them.


Edited by spacey - 6/12/12 at 3:46pm
post #63 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacey View Post

I appreciate that you've spent time and effort testing and writing your thoughts on the HD700's but it is just your opinion and techniques. I'm sure the designer has a completely different set of results too. So whos wrong?**

 

 

 

**no one normal_smile%20.gif

 

All I'm saying is people need to hear them, ideally with their own equipment, not judge them without even listening to them.

 

not everyone has that luxury to hear everything. theres no point in this forum if not for subjective and semi-objective posts/comments/reviews. 

post #64 of 203
Thread Starter 

If anything the older Sennheiser flagships, the HD600/HD650, have been regarded as boring sounding by many. I've hinted at this in the review, but it's quite possible that Sennheiser is aiming for something quite different with the HD700. I did add the following line in the review:

 

Newer people (or experienced people looking for a change) may find the HD700 to be an exciting, vivid, clear sounding, and detailed fun listen.

 

But I wonder if Sennheiser, a big private company specializing in an extremely wide range of consumer and professional audio products, is three years behind the curve. There was a time not too long ago when the Grado RS-1 and HD650 were the only games in town, and most arguments went like this: "too aggressive", "boring", "too aggressive", "boring", "too aggressive", "boring." 

 

A lot has happened in just the last two years. New players like Audeze and HiFiMan are offering great products, and many headphone hobbyists are starting to tire of the "fun" treble peak thang. The success of the aforementioned companies is proof of this.

 

All of this is speculation of course. We've heard the HD700 has been several years in design, we've heard the designer wasn't happy with the HD700 and wanted to put in some tweaks, hence the production delay (there were no sonic changes between the prototype and production.) I don't know what to believe. For all we know, my Homer Simpson story may have been what really happened.

 

You mention "designer" and I always thought "design team". You don't happen to be the guy (or know the guy) who designed it?


Edited by purrin - 6/12/12 at 4:21pm
post #65 of 203
Purrin (and LFF), very nice and informative review, thanks for posting it.
post #66 of 203

No sadly, I'm not the designer of the HD700's i wish i were though! I'm an Architect and Product Designer.

Got my own architecture and design company called, space_"

post #67 of 203

Finally I  think the sound of hd700 was intended.
When you think about it, it's quite regular  below 3k, and irregular after.
I'm not sure this weird mixture happen often in other headphones (smooth and then suddenly irregular).
As someone that find the treble from sennheiser headphones often boring , these irregular peaks might be the fix for something more exciting. 

But I  think, I'd get grados instead.
 

post #68 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

But I  think, I'd get grados instead.

 

Or the Q701s, which are still "sparkly" but not piercing, and save yourself $750.
post #69 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Purrin (and LFF), very nice and informative review, thanks for posting it.

 

YVW (from LFF and I)

post #70 of 203

Incredibly insightful review. Thanks for taking the time to share these findings and the consideration given to the way they're presented. Please don't be deterred in posting similar views in future. beerchug.gif

post #71 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

A chair?

 

I guess he means desirably attractive on the exterior, but presumably little substance beyond that? wink.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacey View Post

A very different opinion from a long term user/demo: http://www.headfonia.com/the-sennheiser-hd700-journal/2/

 

Headfonia's reviews, while occasionally useful or amusing, rarely hold much water around here.  If you look at their track record for reviews, they're spotty, all over the place in a random sort of way, and even self-contradictory withing the same review.  Often what is reported in their review is in direct conflict with what the large portion of owners of said product hear in it.  Their HE-400 review was amusing as an HE-400 & HD650 fan.  A few positions were spot-on, but much fluff was said about both of them, for example.  The summation that on $4k+ of signal chain the HD650 becomes superior to HE-400 (on a sub-$1k signal chain) was laughable.  Then in the comments he proceeded to declare that the two are in a totally different league and shouldn't be compared.  While in my experience I find that the two are generally equal, but HD650 can be made to surpass HE-400, also on a sub-$1k chain so long as the chain is well groomed for HD650.

 

Many veterans here have similar experiences of head-scratching with Mike's reviews.  Tyll at Innerfidelity pulls a bit more weight.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacey View Post

Purrin, All I'm saying is reviews with measurements don't inform anyone how they'll actually sound. I'm on pinkfishmedia (an avid poster (over 11K post) on there and quite a few other forums) and we've had the objectivist 'v' subjectivisit discussions; even the most stanch objectivist review and reviewers still makes the final judgment in the subjective domain. It’s how things sound, not how they measure that counts.

Measurements can only categorise something it cannot define it. The designer who put all the time and R&D work and budget into the HD700’s has made the decisions and would have tested and measured things in a very different way and with different equipment to what you may have used. Its all relative to a monetary reference point.

 

PS, i agree the ATC's are awsome biggrin.gif, the 25A' pros are the new midfield monitors: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150505281245830.469299.81476080829&type=3

 

That is incorrect when referring to speakers/headphones.  While FR measurements don't tell us much about the timbre, decay, transient response, HRTF, etc, elements that combined with FR make up the total "voice" of a headphone, measurements of FR do give us a very significant component of the sound of the headphone.  If you haven't listened to many headphones, yes, a graph tells you little.  If you've listened to many headphones and have a fair understanding and level of experience to know what effect on sound that graph has, then ,yes, it tells us quite a lot about the sound of the headphone. 

 

I'm not a fan of the measurements crowd for many reasons, specifically where cables, tubes, amplifiers, DACs etc come into play largely because they have a perpendicular goal to the subjective crowd.  If something doesn't measure flat the objective crowd in those products will declare it inferior, while a non-flat curve may have been the desired goal.  Further, for cables, I don't believe all the required variables are measured for the measurements crowd.  AKA. the test is flawed.  However for headphones/speakers, particularly FR response curves/graphs show us very much about the specific voicing and attributes of a particular driver.  If you choose to ignore measured data on a headphone, fine.  However that does not make it less useful for those who are familiar with what the FR graph of a driver means to its output sound, nor in this case does it replace the subjectivity that also heard the same spikes.

 

The designers in this case would certainly have used excellent reference equipment, however the risk of using "inferior" test equipment, as it relates to this graph, would be not revealing enough detail in the spikes that are plotted, not obtaining a false spike.  Certainly more tests are required, and more graphs will filter in, but I don't expect them to look very different from this.  Whatever Sennheiser's goal, they wanted those spikes in there. 

 

If you like the headphone in spite of or even because of the flawed output, that's fine, and I'm sure you won't be the only person to do so, it may prove a popular niche headphone for said coloration.  But arguing the review and the measured graph won't help anything.  As many have pointed out that's a very Grado-like graph, and many people are staunch Grado fans.  That does not however mean it is not a serious flaw for the $1k reference/studio product it aims to be. I will, however, continue to enjoy my HD650 and the extra $500 in my pocket that may or may not be put toward an HD800 as a result of this horrid curve.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

But I wonder if Sennheiser, a big private company specializing in an extremely wide range of consumer and professional audio products, is three years behind the curve. There was a time not too long ago when the Grado RS-1 and HD650 were the only games in town, and most arguments went like this: "too aggressive", "boring", "too aggressive", "boring", "too aggressive", "boring." 

 

A lot has happened in just the last two years. New players like Audeze and HiFiMan are offering great products, and many headphone hobbyists are starting to tire of the "fun" treble peak thang. The success of the aforementioned companies is proof of this.

 

All of this is speculation of course. We've heard the HD700 has been several years in design, we've heard the designer wasn't happy with the HD700 and wanted to put in some tweaks, hence the production delay (there were no sonic changes between the prototype and production.) I don't know what to believe. For all we know, my Homer Simpson story may have been what really happened.

 

I would say they're 3 years behind the curve, it would almost seem that way, but the HD800 2 years go is a lot of what created the new curve.  That leads me to believe it's more a case of he right hand not knowing what the left is doing.  I also still stand by my theory that both the resulting product and the delays were a result of a drastic scrapping and re-design of the HD700 from what was originally intended to be a mini-HD800 ring driver.  Again, speculation only, but between the rumor mill, the delays, and various other issues, I still believe that originally when HD800 was announced and HD700 was mentioned/hinted, the original idea was a ring, and the original prototypes were likely rings.  And then something went wrong, either financially or production wise that forced a delay and lead to an HD600 driver tuned to sound like an HD800 + Grado that we now call HD700. It's kind of reassuring that the good old classic driver design is still with us even in the $1000 era.  It makes HD595 seem suddenly hip again wink_face.gif

 

I also wouldn't rule out a "damping material change for production purposes" in a year or two, say, from stainless steel to a form of black silk that will have absolutely no impact on the sonic character at all. evil_smiley.gif

post #72 of 203

very nice post IEMCrazy

post #73 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

  The summation that on $4k+ of signal chain the HD650 becomes superior to HE-400 (on a sub-$1k signal chain) was laughable.  Then in the comments he proceeded to declare that the two are in a totally different league and shouldn't be compared.  While in my experience I find that the two are generally equal, but HD650 can be made to surpass HE-400, also on a sub-$1k chain so long as the chain is well groomed for HD650.

Because a  sub $1k chain is less laughable.

I  guess that sennheiser put a patent on the driver ring thing, otherwise I  don't see why other manufacturers didn't reproduce the idea yet.

post #74 of 203

Ring radiator tweeters are an old technology-- just as electrostats and planar magnetics.  I don't think Sennheiser could hold a true patent on it.

post #75 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

Ring radiator tweeters are an old technology-- just as electrostats and planar magnetics.  I don't think Sennheiser could hold a true patent on it.

But a ring driver has never been used on a headphone before , isn't it ?
Anyway with money, you can enforce the most stupid patents .

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