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post #61 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude View Post

May not provide balanced output but having the input/output would mean larger market for those who already have the balanced cables.  Wiring a XLR for single ended use, not hard ;)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

 

Unless the amp was designed with a balanced topography, balanced inputs/outputs wouldn't really do anything. That's likely the reason. smile.gif

 

You can have balanced in/out without having a fully balanced design and still enjoy the advantages of a balanced design.  For balanced input all you need are (input)  transformers; supposed advantages are rejection of noise and hence a lower noise floor. But decent transformers by Lundahl and Jensen run about $200/pr so adds about $400-500 to the end user price.

 

And as it is common knowledge on Head-fi , almost all the top tier headphone amps offer balanced headphone out, (that does offer advantages)   but most of these amps are not truely balanced i.e. have two identical circuits ( 180 deg out of phase) for the positive and negative sides for each channel.  So obviously yes, there are other ways to achieve  balanced out without the extra circuitry  and get similar results. (hint: by tapping t)


Edited by gurus - 6/18/12 at 6:46pm
post #62 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurus View Post

 

 

 

You can have balanced in/out without having a fully balanced design and still enjoy the advantages of a balanced design.. For balanced input all you need are (input)  transformers; supposed advantages are rejection of noise and hence a lower noise floor. But decent transformers by Lundahl and Jensen run about $200/pr so adds about $400-500 to the end user price.

 

And as it is common knowledge on Head-fi , almost all the top tier headphone amps offer balanced headphone out, (that does offer advantages)   but most of these these amps are not truely balanced i.e. have two identical circuits ( 180 deg out of phase) for the positive and negative sides for each channel.  So obviously yes, there are other ways to achieve  balanced out without the extra circuitry  and get similar results. (hint: by tapping)


I think you're kinda wrong here. The WA22 had "balanced" outs that weren't truly balanced outs and guess what? They sounded the same as single ended outs.

post #63 of 125

Nods, the idea here isn't to change the performance or cost, but to reduce any reasons to write it off.  Personally, no pre-outs is a big deal.  I can use the DAC-2 to control my monitors but its not fun.  Running an RCA pair out the back even if they aren't switched is good enough for me and keeps the product in the conversation.

post #64 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post


I think you're kinda wrong here. The WA22 had "balanced" outs that weren't truly balanced outs and guess what? They sounded the same as single ended outs.


You were wrong before and you are wrong again. It all depends on how much  "cheating" is going in the design. Whether Woo just used the single ended outputs to XLR outputs or they enhanced the design by implementing something similar to this. Read the comments in the box about balanced headphone design.

 

http://www.dnaudio.com/DNA-Stratus-2A3-headphone-amplifier.html

 

Definitely not a fully balanced design but offering true differential balanced output.

 

Same holds true for the balanced input when using transformers. Almost all the advantages.


Edited by gurus - 6/18/12 at 7:13pm
post #65 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurus View Post


You were wrong before and you are wrong again. It all depends on how much  "cheating" is going in the design. Whether one just used the single ended outputs to XLR outputs or you have enhanced the design by implementing something similar to this. Read the comments in the box about balanced headphone design.

 

http://www.dnaudio.com/DNA-Stratus-2A3-headphone-amplifier.html

 

Definitely not a fully balanced designed but offering true differential balanced output.


I'm not sure what you're agenda is here, but my experiences were first hand. No one is talking about converting an un-balanced amp into a balanced one. It depends on the topography of the circuitry. The Stratus was designed with that in mind, other high end amps that are un-balanced were not. As for being wrong, I'm not perfect...but who is. Do you realize that the LF (this thread's topic) uses a mosfet output stage?

 

Maybe Alex could enlighten us a bit more?


Edited by MacedonianHero - 6/18/12 at 7:22pm
post #66 of 125
Thread Starter 

With a transformer output, as in the DNA amp, it is possible to create the effect of a balanced output because neither side of the transformer secondary has to be grounded. Since the outputs can float, the amp can be wired as balanced even though the output stage is running SE. Since the output stage is SE with either secondary configuration the output power is the same, as you can see from the specs on the amp you gave us the link to. And it won't sound much different if at all because nothing is really changing except the connections and possibly a ground connection if the manufacture chooses to use one in SE mode.

 

In direct coupled amps, such as the LF and many others, you can't make SE into balanced without some other additional trick (like a transformer).

 

However, it is possible to use a 4 pin dual purpose jack so that headphones with balanced connectors will plug in and operate normally even if being driven by a SE output stage.

 

It is also possible to put XLR connectors at the input of a SE amp. Typically the negative signal line is terminated at the jack with a resistor and only the positive signal line is used.

 

So, it is possible to connect an SE amp so that folks with balanced cables and plugs can plug in without issue. But the amp will still be SE unless it was designed balanced.

post #67 of 125
Thread Starter 

Oh, I forgot to say that I've gotten this input too and it is in consideration for Rev 2. But, a final choice hasn't been made yet while I'm still pushing out the LL and the new Liquid Glass.

post #68 of 125

I think it would be easy to offer it as an option. You already offer the option for 2 high power or 1 low and 1 high power jack. 

 

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to add an option for a 4 pin (Single Ended) out if people so desired? Thus giving you 1 1/4" out and 1 4 Pin out. 

 

I actually was just thinking about this today. Ala the EF-6? Just a thought.

 

Still eager to hear about that Liquid Glass. :D

post #69 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post


I'm not sure what you're agenda is here, but my experiences were first hand. No one is talking about converting an un-balanced amp into a balanced one. It depends on the topography of the circuitry. The Stratus was designed with that in mind, other high end amps that are un-balanced were not. As for being wrong, I'm not perfect...but who is. Do you realize that the LF (this thread's topic) uses a mosfet output stage?

 

Maybe Alex could enlighten us a bit more?

The problem was because of the generalized statement you made "Unless the amp was designed with a balanced topography", so I replied to that. If you had said that  Liquid Fire was not designed as a balanced amp, then we would not be having this discussion and for that clarification I  gladly yield ground to Dr. Cavalli.

post #70 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurus View Post

The problem was because of the generalized statement you made "Unless the amp was designed with a balanced topography", so I replied to that. If you had said that  Liquid Fire was not designed as a balanced amp, then we would not be having this discussion and for that clarification I  gladly yield ground to Dr. Cavalli.

I thought it was implied as this was the LF thread. Maybe I was wrong? smile.gif

post #71 of 125
Balanced, schmalanced. If it sounds good and you're happy, none's the wiser.
post #72 of 125

Funny thing is, headphones don't know a balanced output from a hole in the ground. Neither does anyone else for that matter when you really get down to it.

 

Consider a black box with two terminals coming out of it. How can you tell, by what you can see across those two terminals, whether the output is balanced or unbalanced?

 

se

post #73 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

Funny thing is, headphones don't know a balanced output from a hole in the ground. Neither does anyone else for that matter when you really get down to it.

 

Consider a black box with two terminals coming out of it. How can you tell, by what you can see across those two terminals, whether the output is balanced or unbalanced?

 

se

 

Or how about your unable to hook your gear up because you only have balanced outs from the source.  I bet your know the difference then.

post #74 of 125
Thread Starter 

Right. There is a difference between an actual balanced signal because the amp is balanced,whether headphones know the difference, and the interconnects.

 

Steve is certainly right about the fact that the headphones don't know the difference because they are two terminal devices (each earpiece). However, many can argue that a balanced amp topology is better (eliminated high currents in the ground circuit, less noise because of CMRR, more output for the same rails, etc.). So, a balanced amp might sound better because of these additional details in the circuit. OTOH, this is not guaranteed depending on how good the design is.

 

But, the other, totally unrelated issue is whether the interconnects on the amp are convenient for everyone, including those who have other balanced components in their systems. This is legitimate, even if the amp is totally SE. And the reason why we're thinking about what to do. :)

 

If we keep these to different issues separate we can talk better about each one. biggrin.gif

post #75 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

Or how about your unable to hook your gear up because you only have balanced outs from the source.  I bet your know the difference then.

 

Except I was talking about the output of a headphone amp.

 

se

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