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Constructive "Anti-Beats" headphone discussion - Page 15

post #211 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Although it's worth mentioning that unlike Bose who also gets a bad rap, Monster's products are generally good, just expensive for what you get. On the other hand, Bose is the champion of marketing in the audio industry, and most of Bose home audio speakers are crap. Some of their Acoustimass sets have holes in the frequency response, and Bose uses the cheapest possible materials in their drivers. So if you want to see someone get abused as a fanboy of an audio product, go over to the AVS speaker forum and express a lot of love for Bose Acoustimass. The head-fi response to Beats owners is quite nice by comparison. smile.gif

What did you miss from Intellexi.us, let's see: "cheapest possible components, holes in frequency response, deceptive marketing" - yep, sounds like it verbatim. I don't mean to start off so combatively, but that single very poorly conducted and heavily biased and uncontrolled blog post does not inform this argument. This argument also sounds highly practiced and rehearsed...I've heard it all before, and it's all easy to put holes into. And let's not link to the objective crusade HQ, shall we? redface.gif If you want to get the measurements and theory sticks out, I can go there too - Bose does not come up short in a lot of arenas, especially when you ACCEPT that Hoffman will always be there to kick you in the seat. The other point that I'd add is a lot of "Bose sucks" arguments that I've seen set-up on forums in recent years, the guy (or gal, I guess) making the claim usually hasn't even set their equipment up correctly - so of course I'm gonna hate driving my car after I loaded sulfur-enriched diesel into my gasoline engine. Does that mean Ford sucks?

Regarding the quality/etc of Bose speakers, in terms of parts cost, they're going to be on the level of whatever you get for the same price from various big-box manufacturers (or better, in the case of their crossovers). That's just economies of scale in action - I've never understood the whole "oh XYZ is evil they are making a profit so buy ABC [which is also making a profit and running at the same margins]" line of thinking. They aren't in business to be your BFF, they're in business to make money. And they do very well. If they weren't doing something right, they would not be one of the oldest continuously operating speaker makers in the United States (trust me, lying to your customers does not make you billions of dollars - it will eventually come crashing down around your ears). I know this is a very marketized explanation, but at the end of the day they really do have to be doing something right (and "marketing" is not a legitimate answer - boiler room products always die within a generation or two) to rake in the greenbacks.

I'm not trying to argue that Bose makes the best products on the market, but as a poster in another thread posited - they're good "civilian grade" equipment. And in many cases, their equipment is more listenable and certainly better supported than what you get from a lot of "audiophile approved" manufacturers. Sure, boutique/gear-head shops will always beat them, but how much does a boutique pair of speakers cost? $10,000? $100,000? Is that even a remotely fair comparison? (not unless we're talking about Bose of course).

I think both responses to "fanboys" is absolutely ridiculous - there's not a single good justification for hating someone over a commercial purchase. The crusading is just...fruitless. As I've established in many other threads, I'm pretty agnostic in such matters, but I have an issue with illogical or unfounded arguments from all sides. redface.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire1 View Post

Hm speaking of Bose, what would you guys say about the QuietComfort15 headphones? I got them as a gift and while not as good as my incoming Denon D2ks, I didn't find them too bad. I thought they were pretty decent. A hundred times better than Studios in my opinion. I compared them side by side with a friend's set. The Beats sounded distinctly muddy and squishy - the sound was all mushed together and sounded muffled with thumping bass finding its way into everything. Plus, the NC of the Beats was a joke compared to the Bose, especially when we used a hair dryer as a background noise. The Beats felt cheap and flimsy to me, but one positive thing was the nice thick cord that made you think it was indestructible. But in all honesty, I think the Studios are inferior to my $30 Skullcandy Titans. I heard more clarity and less mush from the $30 iem than the $300 Beats. And the Skullcandy is made of metal! LOL
After that experience, I can definitely say the QC15s are superior to the Studios. Not sure how they stack up against other cans though. My Denons walk all over the Bose in sound quality, but in any noisy place, I find myself favoring the QC15's ability to hush the world.
What do you guys think?

I'd agree with this. The Bose headphones really are not that bad on the whole when you get beyond the blind-rage "hate it because it's edgy" phase. IMHO the AE2 are better than a lot of their competition, and they'd be the perfect sub-$200 pair of headphones if they weren't so BLOODY MICROPHONIC (and the AE1 were just as bad!). The QC15 fix that, are more comfortable, but force you to use ANC (I have an issue with ALL devices that eat batteries, so the only ANC headphones I don't have a "thing" about are the Klipsch M40 - because they can all day and never have batteries installed). Sound quality wise, they're pretty good for closed headphones - fairly clear and uncolored midrange, boosted but not insane bass, and non-sibilant/clashy/aggressive top-end (which is something most closed headphones, the Denons included, suffer from). They're very well damped. The problem is they have a somewhat soul-less/life-less presentation of audio as a result, and there are a number of headphones at or around their price-range that are more musical and more enjoyable if/when isolation can be taken out of the equation (in other words, the K701 sound much better, but you can't use the K701 on the bus).

I think that overall they're a solidly built pair of closed headphones. Not the best thing ever, but they address a lot of ergonomic and functional problems that a lot of "audiophile favorites" have.

Regarding the Beats headphones - I've yet to find a working Studio setup on demo, but every pair I've handled is just click-clack plastic. They remind me of the toys you buy children at theme parks or ice shows, you know, that break before you make it out of the parking lot...frown.gif

The Beats Solo and Beats Pro are quite different beasts (I've heard those) - the Solo are like listening through a large woofer played full-range, and the Pro want to push the entire frequency spectrum down your ear-hole in one aggressive thrust. Neither is really memorable, but both seemed reasonably well built. Probably overpriced but hey, they look kinda cool and come in more than one or two colors. I could very gladly live with either of the Bose headphones over either of them though (and over a lot of other headphones too). Certainly there are better performers, but again, what's a pair of boutique headphones cost? $1000? Is that a fair...

I think in general popular products take a bad rap simply for being popular outside of enthusiast circles. It's sort of a "I know more than you do about this, and that's why I avoid the mainstream" vibe - and I certainly see that with a lot of the "beats bashing" threads (the whole genre of "I once had beats but now I see the light and I got xYZ...").

Sure, it does get annoying to constantly hear about a single product as the end-all, but that isn't just Beats, that's a lot of other products that are senselessly hyped up and ultimately fail to perform to that level, or at all. I think in the case of the Beats products, the biggest complaints I could make are that they aren't comfortable for me (but if they're legitimately targeting "children" I could understand them as probably being more comfy, especially for the 10-20 minute at a time sessions between classes or activities that children are likely to engage them for; but for the 7-9 hour sessions I need out of a pair of headphones, with my big'ol head, they just aren't cutting it), and the sound quality isn't to my liking. But that doesn't mean it's out and out bad (although I'm not sure I could legitimately field an argument that I'd like to listen to a woofer played full-range all day, it's funny to do as a demonstrator, but not something I'd want to set-up in my listening room; the somewhat IEM-like presentation of the Beats Pro could probably appeal to some listeners though). Regarding the pricing - yuck. But I think that's a larger trend - there's tons of wildly overpriced and overblown headphones and speakers on the market today. Beats are probably among the most visible, but aren't alone at all.
post #212 of 548

Bose headphones are overpriced, but unlike Beats, they're not at all deceptively marketed. Bose doesn't make absurd claims that the Quiet Comfort line is "used in every major recording studio" or "designed by the artists themselves", etc. Some of the Beats product descriptions I've seen had me laughing out loud.

 

Bose commercials have a tired guy on an airplane listening to a really comfortable headphone with a laid back sound and good isolation. That's pretty much what they are.

 

I think where Bose makes a lot of its enemies is actually in the car audio world, where OEM Bose systems with mediocre sound are perceived to be "awesome" by unwitting buyers when for the same money you could put a breathtaking component system in your car.

post #213 of 548

I don't know how many people here on head-fi use macbooks/mac computers (probably a lot), but I find the situation with the current "beats-bashing" similar to PC/Windows people hating on macbooks/macbook users praising macbooks to the sun and hating on windows.

 

...just throwing this out there

post #214 of 548

The Beats are the Macs for sure.(why did I buy it? Uh, I dunno.. They're good right?)

Audio-Technica = Windows (just go with the flow, can't go wrong)

Shure = Linux (l33t)

post #215 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


What did you miss from Intellexi.us, let's see: "cheapest possible components, holes in frequency response, deceptive marketing" - yep, sounds like it verbatim. I don't mean to start off so combatively, but that single very poorly conducted and heavily biased and uncontrolled blog post does not inform this argument. This argument also sounds highly practiced and rehearsed...I've heard it all before, and it's all easy to put holes into. And let's not link to the objective crusade HQ, shall we? redface.gif If you want to get the measurements and theory sticks out, I can go there too - Bose does not come up short in a lot of arenas, especially when you ACCEPT that Hoffman will always be there to kick you in the seat. The other point that I'd add is a lot of "Bose sucks" arguments that I've seen set-up on forums in recent years, the guy (or gal, I guess) making the claim usually hasn't even set their equipment up correctly - so of course I'm gonna hate driving my car after I loaded sulfur-enriched diesel into my gasoline engine. Does that mean Ford sucks?
Regarding the quality/etc of Bose speakers, in terms of parts cost, they're going to be on the level of whatever you get for the same price from various big-box manufacturers (or better, in the case of their crossovers). That's just economies of scale in action - I've never understood the whole "oh XYZ is evil they are making a profit so buy ABC [which is also making a profit and running at the same margins]" line of thinking. They aren't in business to be your BFF, they're in business to make money. And they do very well. If they weren't doing something right, they would not be one of the oldest continuously operating speaker makers in the United States (trust me, lying to your customers does not make you billions of dollars - it will eventually come crashing down around your ears). I know this is a very marketized explanation, but at the end of the day they really do have to be doing something right (and "marketing" is not a legitimate answer - boiler room products always die within a generation or two) to rake in the greenbacks.
I'm not trying to argue that Bose makes the best products on the market, but as a poster in another thread posited - they're good "civilian grade" equipment. And in many cases, their equipment is more listenable and certainly better supported than what you get from a lot of "audiophile approved" manufacturers. Sure, boutique/gear-head shops will always beat them, but how much does a boutique pair of speakers cost? $10,000? $100,000? Is that even a remotely fair comparison? (not unless we're talking about Bose of course).
I think both responses to "fanboys" is absolutely ridiculous - there's not a single good justification for hating someone over a commercial purchase. The crusading is just...fruitless. As I've established in many other threads, I'm pretty agnostic in such matters, but I have an issue with illogical or unfounded arguments from all sides. redface.gif

 

I have no clue what you are talking about regarding Bose and whatever website that is. My first experiences with the poor quality of Bose happened before there was a World Wide Web rolleyes.gif  Their current HT systems are terrible "civilian grade" equipment for the money, and if there speakers were any good, they wouldn't require places like Best Buy to demo their stuff with a Bose supplied CD that has been EQ'd to cover the deficiencies of their speakers. And it doesn't take an audio engineer to look at the drivers in Bose speakers and see that they are pieces of crap compared to other mainstream speaker setups that are half that price. Not to mention that Bose won't even post the frequency response of most of their speakers on their website; something to hide there.

 

However, my point was that while both Monster and Bose devote huge amounts of their revenue to marketing, at least Monster makes good products, albeit over priced. Which is quite different from the justified loathing pretty much the entire audiohphile world shows towards Bose speaker products and their marketing strategies that mislead consumers into thinking they are buying good quality. 

post #216 of 548
Quote:

The Beats are the Macs for sure.(why did I buy it? Uh, I dunno.. They're good right?)

Audio-Technica = Windows (just go with the flow, can't go wrong)

Shure = Linux (l33t)

 

 

not exactly what i meant by my earlier post...

 

what i mean is that there are a lot of people that use macbooks and defend their macbooks saying their purchase was well worth it, and then go on to bash beats saying they're complete garbage and overpriced. i'm a windows user and i try my best not to hate too much on macbooks (i'm going to go with just macbooks right now as i'm fine with some of apple's products) but to be strictly honest, i really do believe that macbooks are ridiculously overpriced and a waste of money. many macbook users may become offended by this, but isn't this exactly how a beats owner would feel when you call their headphones garbage and a waste of money? if one feels completely confident with one's purchase of a macbook and doesn't agree with all the arguments that one can have the same performance for less than half the price, then wouldn't a beats owner feel similarly about their purchase? most macbook users don't enjoy it when macbooks get hated on, so i'm sure most beats owner wouldn't enjoy it when people call the headphones that they own, garbage. the fact is that different people enjoy different sound signatures. if i had, say, a different hobby than you, would you immediately call my hobby stupid just because it's not a hobby you partake in?

 

of course, how beats decide to advertise their products is another matter


Edited by blackmarket - 9/15/12 at 1:54am
post #217 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I have no clue what you are talking about regarding Bose and whatever website that is. My first experiences with the poor quality of Bose happened before there was a World Wide Web rolleyes.gif   Their current HT systems are terrible "civilian grade" equipment for the money, and if there speakers were any good, they wouldn't require places like Best Buy to demo their stuff with a Bose supplied CD that has been EQ'd to cover the deficiencies of their speakers. And it doesn't take an audio engineer to look at the drivers in Bose speakers and see that they are pieces of crap compared to other mainstream speaker setups that are half that price. Not to mention that Bose won't even post the frequency response of most of their speakers on their website; something to hide there.

However, my point was that while both Monster and Bose devote huge amounts of their revenue to marketing, at least Monster makes good products, albeit over priced. Which is quite different from the justified loathing pretty much the entire audiohphile world shows towards Bose speaker products and their marketing strategies that mislead consumers into thinking they are buying good quality. 

There's no point in continuing this with you - literally every single hashed-out "Bose bash" trope is represented here and this entire block feels like not only has it been rehearsed, but that you've played this rodeo before; I see absolutely zero potential for rational or constructive discussion with you on this matter. Oh well. Have a nice day!
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmarket View Post


not exactly what i meant by my earlier post...

I got that (don't know if he did), but the response was still cute. redface.gif

The Audio-Technica response was especially interesting to think about in some depth...
Quote:
what i mean is that there are a lot of people that use macbooks and defend their macbooks saying their purchase was well worth it, and then go on to bash beats saying they're complete garbage and overpriced. i'm a windows user and i try my best not to hate too much on macbooks (i'm going to go with just macbooks right now as i'm fine with some of apple's products) but to be strictly honest, i really do believe that macbooks are ridiculously overpriced and a waste of money. many macbook users may become offended by this, but isn't this exactly how a beats owner would feel when you call their headphones garbage and a waste of money? if one feels completely confident with one's purchase of a macbook and doesn't agree with all the arguments that one can have the same performance for less than half the price, then wouldn't a beats owner feel similarly about their purchase? most macbook users don't enjoy it when macbooks get hated on, so i'm sure most beats owner wouldn't enjoy it when people call the headphones that they own, garbage. the fact is that different people enjoy different sound signatures. if i had, say, a different hobby than you, would you immediately call my hobby stupid just because it's not a hobby you partake in?

I'd agree with this. I think it's larger than just Beats though - for example if you start saying bad things about Denon headphones, I'm sure you'd offend quite a few people here. But yes I agree with this - people get all bent out of shape about the "hypothetical Beats owner" but never stop to think: "gee, I'm telling this guy/gal they're stupid/dumb/ignorant/unlearned/etc because they made a decision to buy this not-so-inexpensive product that they seem to like a lot, I wonder why they suddenly are on the defensive and pretty bent out of shape?"

It just starts to become a bit, I don't know, religion-preachy after a point. Sure, if someone wants to hear critiques of them that's fine, but just the blind assault makes it absolutely tiring (as warren said - it gets old hearing about XYZ product and answering the same question again and again, but it also gets old constantly hearing about how XYZ killed so and so's mother, caused world hunger, and is responsible for the current economic situation of the world).
Quote:
of course, how beats decide to advertise their products is another matter

This. The whole "as the artist intended" and "hear it like they do in the studio" thing is just sickening - it seems to not only pander to the tastes of A&R execs, but also talks down to the customer. Then again, I have noticed a trend for most headphones labeled "PRO" to actually be more fairly classified as DJ 'phones, and most legitimate professional/studio 'phones tend to be labeled "Monitor." So if you keep that in mind, Beats' marketing isn't quite as ridiculous. Still though, some of those claims (someone set-up a thread a while ago that was looking at insane claims by manufacturers, and Beats was pretty much the "winner")...
Edited by obobskivich - 9/15/12 at 2:57am
post #218 of 548

So I don't know bout bose headphones. But the 909's bookshelf speakers have kicked some major ass since the late 80's. Tremendous speakers IMO. I seriously have no idea where people are coming from trashing their speakers. Pretty sure the best bang for your buck besides maybe Technics for a very loooong time. Factory car systems do kindof stink though.

post #219 of 548

Beats have been decreasing in popularity recently in Perth. Been seeing FannyWang and Souls lately.

post #220 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by antimatter View Post

So I don't know bout bose headphones. But the 909's bookshelf speakers have kicked some major ass since the late 80's. Tremendous speakers IMO. 

 

Ehhh...it's the "901s" and they are not meant to be bookshelf speakers. But yes, they were considered to be a fairly good speaker in the 70s and 80s, an exception to Bose's other speaker products.  But that old technology has been stagnant while the rest of the market has advanced, and they are no longer considered a good value. 

post #221 of 548
Honestly Bose speakers aren't that bad either. My local Bose store lets you try them out with your own CDs and sources. Are they overpriced? Yes. Do they sound as good as the Harman Kardon store next door? No. But do the Bose sound bad? No, they sound pretty decent just like my QC15 headphones. They are very good civilian options, easily found and bought, carry brand prestige among the general public, and do their job. The average civilian wouldn't be able to fully appreciate "audiophile brand" XYZ like an enthusiast would.

The car argument was good. The civilian car buyer would take the Prius over the "enthusiast" Volt or Leaf or JesusLizardHybrid because that's all the car that buyer would ever need.
post #222 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire1 View Post

Hm speaking of Bose

 

You know, as soon as I read that I started wondering how long it would take for obobs to show up.  He has this amazing Bose-discussion radar.  Next thing you know...  wink.gif

post #223 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire1 View Post

The average civilian wouldn't be able to fully appreciate "audiophile brand" XYZ like an enthusiast would.

 

And you know that to be true how?

 

I spend a lot of time on AVS, and people constantly come asking for suggestions having just bought some Bose Acoustimass, but hearing that they should try something else, or wanting to replace their Bose speakers they've had for say five years. Within the same budget as the Bose (or sometimes even half as much), they buy Energy, Klipsch, Polk, Infinity, Martin Logan, etc. (which are not all esoteric, boutique "audiophile" brands). They come back and quite clearly state how much better the sound is for the money they spent. Average people, sometimes first time audio system buyers. It's incredibly easy to put together a better sounding system when those Bose cube 2.5" drivers cannot produce any mid-bass and have no tweeter (so treble roll off is very early), and when the Bose module that accompanies them is essentially a mid-bass module that's trying to cover a wide range and has no low end. 

post #224 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

 

And you know that to be true how?

 

I spend a lot of time on AVS, and people constantly come asking for suggestions having just bought some Bose Acoustimass, but hearing that they should try something else, or wanting to replace their Bose speakers they've had for say five years. Within the same budget as the Bose (or sometimes even half as much), they buy Energy, Klipsch, Polk, Infinity, Martin Logan, etc. (which are not all esoteric, boutique "audiophile" brands). They come back and quite clearly state how much better the sound is for the money they spent. Average people, sometimes first time audio system buyers. It's incredibly easy to put together a better sounding system when those Bose cube 2.5" drivers cannot produce any mid-bass and have no tweeter (so treble roll off is very early), and when the Bose module that accompanies them is essentially a mid-bass module that's trying to cover a wide range and has no low end. 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post
 
I'm not trying to argue that Bose makes the best products on the market, but they're good civilian grade equipment. And in many cases, their equipment is more listenable and certainly better supported than what you get from a lot of "audiophile approved" manufacturers. 

 

 

 

Me myself, with no experience in speakers, thought the Bose speakers were just fine. They weren't as good as the Harmons next door, but I wouldn't have minded having a Bose speaker system at home. 

 

But maybe that's because I have D2Ks at home Razz

post #225 of 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenpchi View Post

You know, as soon as I read that I started wondering how long it would take for obobs to show up.  He has this amazing Bose-discussion radar.  Next thing you know...  wink.gif

It isn't really anything about Bose specifically - if you've read my other posts, I'm not really a cheerleader for them (or any other brand, except perhaps Koss because nobody else seems to know they exist). I wrote probably one of the original TriPort reviews (back before it was "cool" to not hate), and my ultimate conclusion was "good, but not great" - they ended up going back. They weren't as comfortable as people insisted, and they're REALLY REALLY MICROPHONIC (seriously how did this not get fixed for the AE2? And for that matter, how did they even manage to make it that bad? I've actually TRIED to re-create the effect in the workshop and I can't come close (it's also really hard to think in terms of "make this cable job suck" and so on), even with all sorts of weird stuff like de-stuffed Peltors, old cans, PVC, etc - seriously if it wasn't so obnoxious I'd say they should win an award for it (but don't get me wrong, that issue aside, they're pretty fine sounding for $150)). It's more the mindless rage-rants that crop up; usually if it's just a misunderstanding I think it's worth clearing it up because the ANC headphones are probably "the right answer" for a lot of commuters and travelers out there but end up overlooked because the brand isn't popular (or even really known) here. As I've said before, I'm pretty brand-agnostic, but it's always unfortunate to see things overlooked or outright thrown under the bus just because they aren't liked by the cool kids on the playground. But you probably already knew all of that...

It was also more that I thought this thread was kind of interesting to post in, "constructive anti-beats" and all that - while I agree with you that talking about Beats again, and again, and again, and again, and constantly telling people there are other options, gets old. I don't see where the whole "Beats killed my puppy" hatred comes from (I don't get it for Bose either, although I was kind of glad to be finished hearing the same "reasons why Bose is evil" year after year since people seem more interested in making fun of Beats and celebrifones in general, and often in creative ways).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire1 View Post



GRRR HUDDLER NOT GRABBING QUOTES RIGHT. angry_face.gif (this isn't anything you did, this is all Huddler; sometimes multi-quote doesn't work for me).

Buy what suits you and your tastes. External opinions can be helpful sometimes, but as with any other statistical overview, drop outliers on both sides; and at the end of the day you still have to live with the purchase you've made. Not someone else (again, this is partly why I don't get the blind hate - it's not like you buying Bose speakers or Beats headphones or whatever else means I have to listen to them, I've still got my Grados and I'm still gonna listen to'em; doesn't matter what the guy next door to me is doing).
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