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post #31 of 142

Yes, to quote the context of this line here's what it was responding to:

 

zachchen:

True, but some reviewers say that they liked it more than the emm labs dac2x, at around 15K is more than twice as expensive, that's impressive! Some people also have said that they like the analog dac more than the vega, saying that the msb sounded overall more natural etc

 

Radio_head

I would agree with those who like it more than the DAC2X. That doesn't mean spending MSB money is necessarily a value proposition though.

 

This kind of ties in to ongoing conversations elsewhere, logically I wouldn't call my 12K DAC a bargain because it beats out a 15K one.  This is a classic tactic used where someone will advertise or state "better than competitors X times the price" - but it could be worse than one half the price.  Its kind of meaningless to say it was compared favorably to one other more expensive product and all of a sudden that makes it a bargain. A mere logical point, one I try to make when discussing the relativism of "value" in this hobby.  It is what I have been looking for for a long time in a DAC though, so for me worth the money.

 

I don't think I'll have time for another round of thoughts like that for a while, wrote the ECP post while recovering from surgery.  I at least did my duty posting some pretty pictures and a line or two after a month of ownership though.

 

Currently using Electra/009, sold the KGSSHV, BHSE, and LL1.  May also pick up an LL2 for the stat rig soon depending.  Dynamic headphone rig is currently all of Doug's amps with a Leviathan on order, HD800/LCD-3/HP1000/R10 (all modded) with JH13FP's and UERM's for CIEMs.  

 

I'm not actually mean, I just made a mean face as a kid and it stuck.  I hate it when parents are right.

post #32 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_head View Post

Yes, to quote the context of this line here's what it was responding to:

zachchen:
True, but some reviewers say that they liked it more than the emm labs dac2x, at around 15K is more than twice as expensive, that's impressive! Some people also have said that they like the analog dac more than the vega, saying that the msb sounded overall more natural etc

Radio_head
I would agree with those who like it more than the DAC2X. That doesn't mean spending MSB money is necessarily a value proposition though.

This kind of ties in to ongoing conversations elsewhere, logically I wouldn't call my 12K DAC a bargain because it beats out a 15K one.  This is a classic tactic used where someone will advertise or state "better than competitors X times the price" - but it could be worse than one half the price.  Its kind of meaningless to say it was compared favorably to one other more expensive product and all of a sudden that makes it a bargain. A mere logical point, one I try to make when discussing the relativism of "value" in this hobby.  It is what I have been looking for for a long time in a DAC though, so for me worth the money.

I don't think I'll have time for another round of thoughts like that for a while, wrote the ECP post while recovering from surgery.  I at least did my duty posting some pretty pictures and a line or two after a month of ownership though.

Currently using Electra/009, sold the KGSSHV, BHSE, and LL1.  May also pick up an LL2 for the stat rig soon depending.  Dynamic headphone rig is currently all of Doug's amps with a Leviathan on order, HD800/LCD-3/HP1000/R10 (all modded) with JH13FP's and UERM's for CIEMs.  

I'm not actually mean, I just made a mean face as a kid and it stuck.  I hate it when parents are right.

U're considering picking up the ll2 despite having the Electra already, which u obviously prefer over the ll otherwise u wouldn't have sold the ll1. Just purely out of curiosity, why? I am using the ll1 with 009 btw
post #33 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_head View Post

Due to some requests, posting some pictures up here:





This is the best DAC I have ever owned or auditioned with my own equipment.  Tremendous clarity and transparency with minimal brightness, exactly what I was hoping for.

Very very jealous biggrin.gif I see you also got the upgraded power supply? Do you feel that the upgraded psu brings sq improvements over just the "regular" psu?
post #34 of 142

Re LL2: Heard both side by side, they are very similar but not the same to my ears.  I also like the convenience of SS sometimes.

 

As for the power supply question, I upgraded before it came in so never got to compare to the desktop power supply.  Having both adds about $3600, while just having the upgraded PS "only" adds 3K.

post #35 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_head View Post

Yes, to quote the context of this line here's what it was responding to:

 

zachchen:

True, but some reviewers say that they liked it more than the emm labs dac2x, at around 15K is more than twice as expensive, that's impressive! Some people also have said that they like the analog dac more than the vega, saying that the msb sounded overall more natural etc

 

Radio_head

I would agree with those who like it more than the DAC2X. That doesn't mean spending MSB money is necessarily a value proposition though.

 

This kind of ties in to ongoing conversations elsewhere, logically I wouldn't call my 12K DAC a bargain because it beats out a 15K one.  This is a classic tactic used where someone will advertise or state "better than competitors X times the price" - but it could be worse than one half the price.  Its kind of meaningless to say it was compared favorably to one other more expensive product and all of a sudden that makes it a bargain. A mere logical point, one I try to make when discussing the relativism of "value" in this hobby.  It is what I have been looking for for a long time in a DAC though, so for me worth the money.

 

I don't think I'll have time for another round of thoughts like that for a while, wrote the ECP post while recovering from surgery.  I at least did my duty posting some pretty pictures and a line or two after a month of ownership though.

 

Currently using Electra/009, sold the KGSSHV, BHSE, and LL1.  May also pick up an LL2 for the stat rig soon depending.  Dynamic headphone rig is currently all of Doug's amps with a Leviathan on order, HD800/LCD-3/HP1000/R10 (all modded) with JH13FP's and UERM's for CIEMs.  

 

I'm not actually mean, I just made a mean face as a kid and it stuck.  I hate it when parents are right.

 

Would you mind comparing Electra/009 vs your HD800 rig?  (Especially in terms of listening to rock/pop and jazz.  I often read 009 users say it's best suited for acoustic and classical music.)

 

Also, what do you think of the operation of the Electra?  (Tube maintenance/bias, heat, time to reach optimal state, etc)

 

EDIT: If this is too off-topic, I would appreciate a PM instead.  Thanks, Tari!


Edited by givemevinyl - 8/3/13 at 10:25pm
post #36 of 142
This is definitely going in my letter to Santa this year! I really like the upgraded power supply, it looks so awesome with the dac. Congrats Radio_Head!
post #37 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by givemevinyl View Post

 

Would you mind comparing Electra/009 vs your HD800 rig?  (Especially in terms of listening to rock/pop and jazz.  I often read 009 users say it's best suited for acoustic and classical music.)

 

Also, what do you think of the operation of the Electra?  (Tube maintenance/bias, heat, time to reach optimal state, etc)

 

EDIT: If this is too off-topic, I would appreciate a PM instead.  Thanks, Tari!

That would take some time.  If you remind me elsewhere I'll think about it.  I've really been listening to the R10, HP1000, and JH13FP most of the time lately on the L-2 and BD (DSHA was on loan) so I'd have to really go back and compare.

post #38 of 142

Msb Analog Dac Review

MSB Analog Dac – Review

 

Hey guys,

I was quite happy with my system in the last few weeks. Hydra & Conductor withHD800 & LCD2 were rocking my life lately. I have bought the AG500 Power Regenerator from Power Inspired and it got my system some steps up again. Don’t worry, I will soon review the AG500 too.

So I was thinking how much better can this and in what ways? Hard to imagine at that moment.

smart thinking

Meanwhile I was getting “attacked” by a friend that also had Burson Conductor but got a PS Audio PWD2 instead, telling me every day what a big difference it makes. I trust his ears but didn’t have the chance to test something that let Burson Conductor far behind until now,  as a dac or headphone amplifier.

As you may know, I only have a headphone system at home. Maybe someday, I will go on speakers, but only after getting a proper bigger house or something. However, when I want to hear some good speakers, I go to jack-fi and have a good listen there. Well…what can I say . They were nice to me, now they can’t get rid of me : ” Hey guys, it’s me again!”

Msb analog dac review

In their main room they have a MSB Diamond DAC IV complete line. I have always been impressed by it. I’ve once heard it with a pair of Focal Maestro Utopia speakers and 2 MSB monoblocks . It was the best speaker system I have heard in my entire life.

The sound was so relaxed…so effortless, the positioning was amazing, I was staring like an idiot in the center of the room, hearing the whole music band as it was in front of me, there… The bass went so deep, so controlled, so fast, the dynamics out of this world (for me). The sound was so opened, but with a very natural tonality, so detailed and yet relaxed.

I’ve also heard the MSB Diamond Dac IV with Conductor (as amp) and Sennheiser HD700 & Audeze LCD2, but for a too little time. However, in that short time I was really impressed of it.

Well, the Diamond IV is absolutely stunning, and I was spending time with it but I knew the “relationship” between us is not possible as we are in different social classes, like a peasant having an affair with a duchess , as the price is astronomical for normal people like me. Never even thought of asking to take it for a review, as I was afraid to carry it in my car or anything happening to it.

One day the MSB Analog Dac came in.  At first, I didn’t notice it, as it was a small “tray” or cover on the top of the Diamond line. This baby is starting at 7000$, and I didn’t think of it either, but Jack heard I had some questions about some better dacs, and he lent it to me to answer my previous question “can it get better than this? how? “

“You’ll see >:)”:

Msb Analog Dac review

So “who” is MSB? Some of the very passionate audiophiles know of it as it is known to make one of the best, if not the best dac in the world.

However the prices are very high, and it makes only deluxe products in general, so many people may not know of it because of this.

I only know of it because I have read David’s incredible review, which I consider to be the most mature and excellent headphone review catalog of all time. It is there I have read that David had the MSB Diamond IV dac. After seeing the price, I was quite sure I will have little chances to hear one in my life, and then I have discovered Jack , where they have it :D .

When I have seen it in the show room, I was like :

msb analog dac review

MSB has been on the market for over 25 years and since then it had importantachievements over the years:

  • Demonstrated first AC-3 output for LaserDisc to Dolby 1994
  • First THX approved LaserDisc Player (Runco LJR II 1995)
  • First out board AC-3 demodulator (Lexicon LDD-1 1995)
  • First out board DTS processor (Millennium 2.4.6 1997)
  • First digital output on a DSS receiver (1997)
  • First mass marketed 24 bit 96K DAC (LINK DAC 1998)
  • First discrete sign-magnitude 384 kHz Ladder DAC (Platinum DAC 2000)
  • First discrete asynchronous upsampler (Platinum Plus 192 kHz Upsampler 2001)
  • First 80 bit DSP based digital filter (16X Filter 2005)
  • First iPod based digital music server (iLink 2006)
  • First 384 kHz inputs and upsampling (DAC III 2009)
  • First 32 bit interface (Xport 2009)
  • First 384 kHz Bit Perfect USB input (Signature USB on DAC IV 2010)
  • First CD transport that could play data files up to 32 bit, 384 kHz (Data CD IV 2010)
  • First clock with Jitter under 1 psec (77 Femtosecond Galaxy Clock – 2011)

I have used for tests the following gear: MSB Analog Dac with stock power supply,Burson Conductor (as amp and dac), Audiobyte HydraPower Inspired AG500 Power Regenerator, Sennheiser HD800, Audeze LCD2, Martin Logan Mikros 90.

msb analog dac review

I have used the MSB mainly with the usb input. I have tested Audiobyte Hydra on coax too, but I found the usb input from Analog Dac to be better than it. It had more details, more energy, better impact, better soundstage, etc.

I have also tested the usb input with a cheap usb cable vs Chord Silver Plus. I didn’t find any differences between the two.

msb analog dac review

Listening experience

Well, the first minute I started to listen to it, I was stunned on my chair. There were some songs that just got my hair up on my hands and tears in my eyes!

Msb analog dac review

I will write my impressions on some songs:

Sara K – Stars (Stockfisch Vinyl Collection)

The sound was so natural, the voice so well textured and detailed, the details & micro-details incredible. The guitar’s extension is hard do describe in words. The plucking and chord extension just tickles your ears to maxim audiophile pleasure.

Mormon Tabernacle Choir (Soun Classical Great Perfomances) – Scofield: “Battle of the Repuplic”

Ok with this one I have made a trip to the Opera. I really felt there. The voices were amazingly layered and positioned. I just had a “black out” moment here while writing this, as I was listening to the song and I forgot what I was doing and where I am, as I was completely transposed into the song.  The positioning of the instruments and the air between the instruments are out of this world for me. You can hear the strong transient response of the instruments in the back.

Murray Perehia – Piano ( Sony Classical Greate Perfomances )

The first thing I heard when I got Hydra that had a better clock than Conductor was the crisp and detail notes of the piano. I really think that it is one of the way to tell if the clock is very good or not. With Analog Dac the piano was the closest I have heard to real life experience. The notes were just flowing which such ease, clarity and musicality that it just gets to your heart and soul.

Luigi Boccherini (Sony Classical Great Perfomances) – Minuet for string orchestra and various instruments in A major

I have ran out of words, really. The naturalness of the sound is just something I will never forget in my entire life. It flows  effortless and with ease like a crisp mountain river. The voice was so real that i felt it here in the room with me. At the end of the song I felt like applauding the artist and orchestra.

Leonard Cohen – Old Ideas – Going Home ; Lullaby

Ok, after this song I have to make a pause. I am getting too emotional, to involved into the music, I just might overload. At the end of the song I felt like I know Leonard Cohen personally, that we are old friends. God, the voices are so natural and with such texture , with such naturalness that you just cannot not get emotionally involved into the song. The guitar again is just tickling your ears, while Leonard and the the female chorus sing and warms up your feelings.

Gino D’Auri – Ida Y Vueta (Flamenco Guitar)

I’ve been recently to a flamenco show in Barcelona, Spain and just loved it. With Analog Dac, this song transposed me near the stage, in Barcelona again.  The transients of the instruments, the tactility make you really get involved in the already emotional flamenco song.

Pink Floyd – The Dark Side of The Moon – Time

I have heard things in this song I’ve never heard before. Because of the extensions of the ringing, I could see the metal bells from the clocks vibrating, feel the frequency of the vibrations till the end. The positions of the drums pinpointed with extreme accuracy. The chorus and main voice extremely well layered and very textured while the guitar in the back was telling it’s story like never before.

Jen Chapin – Songs of Stevie Wonder – Pastime Paradise , Big Brother

I’ve never been in so many places in one day before. Every song transposed me in a different concert hall, recording room, mood and place. Again I felt there… near the artist, the band. The percussion had incredible detail and impact. The trumpet was so well extended, so palpable, so real, so well placed. The tactility of the instruments is beyond everything I have ever heard before.

Gothart – Ketri Ketri

The bass is incredibly deep, and extremely well textured and controlled. Again the impact and tactility of the instruments were out of this world.

The Cranberries – Linger

I haven’t ever put accent or really noticed the first part where the small violin plays far in the back. Now I felt every detail, every note from it , it’s whole extension, even though it was far in the back and very subtle. The sound is so energetic, so dynamic, yet so smooth and effortless that is kind of hard to get a grip of what it’s going on and how :) ) .

Therion – Deggial – Enter Vril-ya

So does it rock? Hell yes, it does. The energy just blows you out from the chair. The strong guitars are so deep and extended that you can feel them in your lungs, as you would be listening to a speaker system. The chorus again is amazing and the voices are beyond excellent.

Infected Mushroom – Becoming Insane

With this DAC, I sure am. I haven’t found any weak spots in it, just extremely strong points that gets all the emotion out of any song I have thrown at it. The bass is incredible with it. It goes very low, it hits hard and is very energetic, fast, and controlled.

Let’s make a little recap and study the sound a little closer.

Bass

The bass is incredible with both Audeze and HD800. It goes extremely deep, it is fast, controlled and full of energy.

Mids

The mids are the best I have ever heard in a DAC until now, but who am I kidding, every aspect of this dac, is the best I have heard so far. The instruments have an incredible extension, detail and presence as the voices are so natural, so well textured that you get to feel like you know the singer at the end of the song.

Treble

The treble is excellent too, very well extended and detailed but smooth even on HD800. I’ve never heard such extension and energy in the treble before.

Transient Response

The transient response is breath taking. Every pluck is felt, every instrument has impact even though it may be far, far in the back, you can still feel it.

Dynamics & Micro-dynamics

The Analog Dac takes this area to another level too. You can hear the voice that sings intimately in your ear, while the guitars chords are plucked in a way that you feel in you’ve plucked them yourself, hearing and feeling all the vibration and extension of the chord, while a very subtle violin or trumpet plays very far in the back and you can still feel it’s whole extension.

Details & Micro-details

The Analog Dac made me hear somethings for the first time in many songs that I know intimately, and this is available on the whole audio spectrum from very low bass to high treble.  In Leonard’s ‘”Going Home” song,  I have heard how he touched his face with the microphone or with his hands, the sound showing that at that moment he hadn’s shaved for a day or two.

Instrument separation, layering and positioning

You want to go get transposed into music, to close your eyes and see every instrument and it’s position. Well the Analog Dac really gets you into the music, transposes you, making you forget where you are and what you are doing. The layering and positioning are incredible. The air between instruments is so natural, as in real life.  You are not listening to stereo any longer. 3D would be more accurate to say.

Tonality and Naturaleness

The name of the DAC wasn’t picked randomly. The sound is extremely natural, flowing smooth and without effort. Don’t get me wrong. Even though it is smooth, it is full of energy and very good PRAT, a combination very hard do reach.

Openness

The soundstage is very wide, deep and incredibly holographic.

Tactility 

As I said before the Audeze LCD3 were the most tactile headphones I have yet heard. The analog dac made the HD800  very tactile headphones as well. It is amazing how HD800 scaled with it.

msb analog dac revie

Conclusions

Well, you can imagine what the conclusions are.

This was the most emotional musical experience of my life.

As I told you, a few days before I was very happy with my new Hydra and the AG500 Power Regenerator, which both improved the sound of my Burson Conductorsubstantially.

Is it better than Conductor? I’ve made a little test to see:

What do you think? The comparison is quite useless and would have no point, as these two are in different worlds. Don’t get me wrong, the Conductor is still a wonderful piece of hardware, but in completely other league.

The Analog Dac is the best DAC I have yet tested and heard properly. I just fell in love with it:

msb analog dac review

With it, I got transposed inside the music. I forgot about myself, what I was doing, where I was and after the song finished got out of the wonderful journey it took me, and felt like I was waking up from a long sleep, not knowing where I was and who I was for the first second, and I am not kidding about this.

Pros:

  • excellent dynamics & micro dynamics
  • extremely well detailed but still smooth sound
  • explodes with energy but again still smooth
  • excellent instrument separation and positioning
  • very opened sound
  • excellent transient response
  • natural decay
  • the sound has very very good tactility
  • natural and analog sound

Cons:

  • price ( and this is just because I can’t afford it :) ) )

I really hope that sometime in my life I can look with pride at my table and see an Analog Dac of my own.

Or there might be some other way… Guys, you may stop hearing from me for a while. I think I am going to make a run for it with the Analog DAC (the peasent has kidnapped the duchess )  :))


Edited by dan.gheorghe - 8/13/13 at 3:37pm
post #39 of 142

Excellent, excellent review! PERFECT pics too! Now-just get an Overdrive SE to compare for me. :)

 

-Daniel


Edited by BournePerfect - 8/12/13 at 10:32am
post #40 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post

Excellent, excellent review! PERFECT pics too! Now-just get an Overdrive SE to compare for me. :)

 

-Daniel

Thank you, Daniel. Would love to hear that one too, but I doubt I get that lucky again.

post #41 of 142

So uh, what exactly does the 7K starting point get you-other than ONE input? *pukes* I see a couple different power supplies on their site too, which one comes standard with no extra charge? Seems confusing, and their add on fees are absurd. It's run 10K just to get a few digital inputs of our choosing. But damn I want one. *lists motorcycle for sale*

 

-Daniel

post #42 of 142

Loved the review.

 

Makes music worthwhile.

post #43 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post

So uh, what exactly does the 7K starting point get you-other than ONE input? *pukes* I see a couple different power supplies on their site too, which one comes standard with no extra charge? Seems confusing, and their add on fees are absurd. It's run 10K just to get a few digital inputs of our choosing. But damn I want one. *lists motorcycle for sale*

 

-Daniel

If you scroll to the bottom of this page (http://www.msbtech.com/products/analogDac.php?Page=../index), you can see the ugly PS. And you need to pay $2,995 to upgrade to the Analog Power Base...

post #44 of 142

Yep I just noticed all that. Man I want this thing. I guess I could start with the basic model with usb only-then use the upgradeitis bug on every $1,000+ upgrade module. Seriously considering this actually. Welcome to Headfi-sorry about your entire livelihood. This place sucks.

 

-Daniel

post #45 of 142
The volume control ($995) cannot be added later, so this will add up to $8,000.

Expensive, yes, but ever so tempting...
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