TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE! - Page 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab 

You can connect the output of a phono stage directly to a headphone amp almost in every case.  Maybe in rare cases the combination will not have enough gain, but those will be rare. 

 

Just so it's clear, you can NEVER plug a turntable itself directly into a headphone amp, unless it's one of those very few turntables with a built in phono stage (which is not usually a good thing anyway).

+1. There is one limitation that very rarely happens in practice - if the output impedance of phono stage is high and input impedance of headphone amp (or any other equipment connected to phono stage, easpecially using long cables ( high capacitance) ) is unusually low - in that case you will need a line stage capable of driving that low impedance. This happens really VERY rarely in practice - but I did stumble upon it a couple of times. Sonically it manifests itself with lack of dynamics, definition and general sluggishness, normally accompanied by lack of extension on either extreme of the frequency range. It will sound compressed and limited, but only under really extreme case directly audible as distorted.

All reasonably well designed equipment should be free of such behaviour.

Not to dispute the notion that it will usually work out fine, but I've come across one that is close to not being ideal, and I was a little surprised because there's times I have the volume knob on my DNA Sonett maxxed out.  It's loud, don't get me wrong, but it could go one more to 11, if you know what I'm saying.

Grado Sonata1 (5.0 mV) > Soundsmith MMP3 (43 db gain) > DNA Sonett > Sennheiser 600 or 800 headphones (300 ohm)

Per DNA - "• Just the right amount of gain: 6dB w/IEC setting; 1dB w/Low setting "

Part of Donald's design philosophy was lower gain to utilize a higher volume know setting to get into the sweet spot for the potentiometer.  

"Many headphone amplifiers have too much gain, thereby restricting the useable range of the volume control to the bottom of the potentiometer where the dual sections are imbalanced, causing one channel to play louder than other. Through the Sonett, you'll have plenty of volume control range with proper channel balancing at any setting. "

So, there ya go.  

OK.. Got a bit of a setup issue here.

VPI Scout TT-- JMW 9 arm -- Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridge

The wood cartridge is too light for the arm.  Included is the weight that allows compensation for the light cartridge.  Installed, I can find an accurate VTF of 2.2g

Here's the issue:  VTA.  The rake on the cartridge is pretty extreme (the distance from the needle end of the cartridge is thicker than the rear).  To make the bottom of the cartridge parallel to the platter surface, the pivot must be dropped to a very low height-- so low-- there's almost no room to raise the arm.  

I can only think of two solutions-- One: insert a wedge shaped weight that lowers the rear of the cartridge off the shell further than the front of the cartridge.  Two: Exchange the cartridge to a model that doesn't have a steep rake like the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.  

Is there another adjustment on the table I haven't thought to adjust?  I'm new to the VPI Scout.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeltime 

OK.. Got a bit of a setup issue here.

 

VPI Scout TT-- JMW 9 arm -- Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridge

 

The wood cartridge is too light for the arm.  Included is the weight that allows compensation for the light cartridge.  Installed, I can find an accurate VTF of 2.2g

 

Here's the issue:  VTA.  The rake on the cartridge is pretty extreme (the distance from the needle end of the cartridge is thicker than the rear).  To make the bottom of the cartridge parallel to the platter surface, the pivot must be dropped to a very low height-- so low-- there's almost no room to raise the arm.  

 

I can only think of two solutions-- One: insert a wedge shaped weight that lowers the rear of the cartridge off the shell further than the front of the cartridge.  Two: Exchange the cartridge to a model that doesn't have a steep rake like the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.  

 

Is there another adjustment on the table I haven't thought to adjust?  I'm new to the VPI Scout.  

Oh dear - here we go again.

This is a rather common problem - back in the day and now. Ideally and theorethically, the cartridge SHOULD be as shallow ( low height from the sylus level to the arm mounting platform )

and light. The only widespread turntables that adhered to this were Dual models - it is a PITA to find today a cartridge that is shallow enough ( arm normally can not be adjusted in height ) and light and COMPLIANT enough. Old Ortofon FF/VMS/M Series of magnetic cartridges spring to mind, Ortofon LM Series ( very rare, very hard to get ), Audio Technica AT 51 in its 1/2" mount version - finito. Linn MCs ( Asak, Klyde, etc ) were also very shallow - for perfect match with the Ittoh arm. 

But other than above, ALL other carts seem to go the path of least resistance - which is to say

height is "normal" ( approx 17 mm or so ) and weight is around 6 g or more.

Do not change the Clearaudio because of the fact VPI did not care to provide for anything but mainstream cart compatibility. I am no friend of  Clear Audio MCs, but their MMs are very good.

There used to be (and probably still can be found someplace) "spacer weights" that go between the tonearm/headshell and cartridge - giving you approx 2 mm height increase you need plus added mass. If you REALLY struggle to get it, please PM me - I might still have a sample or two around.

Do not know if your VPI arm does have antiskating mechanism - if it can not be retroffitted in case there is none, CHANGE the arm ASAP. Do not know where the notion no antiskating is a good thing in an arm with offset angle comes from - but it is NOT GOOD FOR YOUR RECORDS !!! The higher the VTF, the more problematic is antiskating, that is true - but totally without it is guaranteed your right channel on all your records will be irreparably demaged without use of antiskating. VPI can claim whatever they wish ( better sound without antiskate ), but laws of phyisics will not bend for them. If they are trying to ameliorate the fundamental cartridge/arm resonance ( at approx 10 Hz ) this way, it is paying Paul by robbing Peter.

There is a very intriguing and interesting tonearm design just hitting USA ( it was at CES ) -

the VIV Labs "Rigid Float ": http://www.sibatech.co.jp/viv/rf.html . For those reading German, here is a good review: http://www.blackforestaudio.com/ I happened to be able to visit Black Forest Audio a couple of years ago and its founder/owner/#1 http://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php is truly an audio maverick - you will not find any bad sounding product in his range.

There is no such thing as the perfect banana, but this arm just might be capable of bridging the gap between linear tracking and pivoted arms - with the potential of besting them both in the process. Something I would like to have a possibility to audition and possibly be seduced by.

Call down, it has anti skate adjustment.

http://www.elusivedisc.com/VPI-JMW-9-TONEARM-ANTI-SKATE-UPGRADE/productinfo/HW-JMW1015/

This is the upgrade (which that table should have, actually), but being the person that sold him the TT I know the anti-skate mechanism is in there. Did you install it, reeltime?

EDIT: Glad it got to you safe, it seems.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1144172162&read&keyw&zzvpi

This also may help as it describes the OTHER method of antiskate the Scout uses, but this is a very old thread with the old anti skate mechanism also talked about. 

I was able to get the everything mounted and aligned-- but the VTA was way off.  I tried a few adjustments, but quickly realized there was a geometry problem here.  I'm a woodworker, so I'm going to try to fashion a wedge out of a heavy piece of wood, like walnut.  Should do the trick.  

I'm in touch with Elusive Disc-- where I bought the cartridge-- They'll likely do an exchange to Dynavector or Grado-- both make cartridges which play well with VPI if it becomes too big an issue-- just wanted to see if anyone else had experienced something similar, there's no reference to this in any manual, and no one publishes an exploded view of any of the assemblies, which is frustrating because there's no way to tell if I'm missing something simple.  

I'll play with anti-skate after I get this first setup worked out.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorbidToaster 

Glad it got to you safe, it seems.

 

Yes, arrived safe.

I didn't check what my Antiskate was set to before I pulled off my 20X, but my counterweight was all the way forward. It was set up that way by my dealer. 

If you do go Dynavector the 20X is the cart they sell stock on it so you know that'd be a good pick. It certainly sounded good on mine. That's why I kept it for my WTL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeltime 

I was able to get the everything mounted and aligned-- but the VTA was way off.  I tried a few adjustments, but quickly realized there was a geometry problem here.  I'm a woodworker, so I'm going to try to fashion a wedge out of a heavy piece of wood, like walnut.  Should do the trick.  

 

I'm in touch with Elusive Disc-- where I bought the cartridge-- They'll likely do an exchange to Dynavector or Grado-- both make cartridges which play well with VPI if it becomes too big an issue-- just wanted to see if anyone else had experienced something similar, there's no reference to this in any manual, and no one publishes an exploded view of any of the assemblies, which is frustrating because there's no way to tell if I'm missing something simple.  

 

I'll play with anti-skate after I get this first setup worked out.  

 

Yes, arrived safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorbidToaster 

Call down, it has anti skate adjustment.

 

http://www.elusivedisc.com/VPI-JMW-9-TONEARM-ANTI-SKATE-UPGRADE/productinfo/HW-JMW1015/

 

This is the upgrade (which that table should have, actually), but being the person that sold him the TT I know the anti-skate mechanism is in there. Did you install it, reeltime?

 

EDIT: Glad it got to you safe, it seems.

 

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1144172162&read&keyw&zzvpi

This also may help as it describes the OTHER method of antiskate the Scout uses, but this is a very old thread with the old anti skate mechanism also talked about. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorbidToaster 

Call down, it has anti skate adjustment.

 

http://www.elusivedisc.com/VPI-JMW-9-TONEARM-ANTI-SKATE-UPGRADE/productinfo/HW-JMW1015/

 

This is the upgrade (which that table should have, actually), but being the person that sold him the TT I know the anti-skate mechanism is in there. Did you install it, reeltime?

 

EDIT: Glad it got to you safe, it seems.

 

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1144172162&read&keyw&zzvpi

This also may help as it describes the OTHER method of antiskate the Scout uses, but this is a very old thread with the old anti skate mechanism also talked about. 

Great. Since you know the Scout well - any way to get arm at the bearing down/low enough to get by without the wedge weight ? Thicker mat should also do the trick, but that tends to be costly and can also change sound signature.

VPI turntables are otherwise quite good - understandably less numerous over here in Kuzmaland. 

Yeah mats aren't really suggests with the Scout. They like you to strap that bad boy to the platter. It could work though I guess. 

I actually don't know much about it as my dealer set it up for me. I just know what everything does. :)

Which Kuzma do you own? I passed on the Stabi/Stogi recently in favor of a WTL Amadeus. The Stogi was too stiff an arm for my tastes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogsurviver 

 

 

Great. Since you know the Scout well - any way to get arm at the bearing down/low enough to get by without the wedge weight ? Thicker mat should also do the trick, but that tends to be costly and can also change sound signature.

 

VPI turntables are otherwise quite good - understandably less numerous over here in Kuzmaland. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorbidToaster 

Yeah mats aren't really suggests with the Scout. They like you to strap that bad boy to the platter. It could work though I guess. 

 

I actually don't know much about it as my dealer set it up for me. I just know what everything does. :)

 

Which Kuzma do you own? I passed on the Stabi/Stogi recently in favor of a WTL Amadeus. The Stogi was too stiff an arm for my tastes.

I used to own original HEAVY effective mass Stogi arm. Any current Kuzma arms are quite souple by comparison.

Familiar/worked with Kuzma Stogi, Stogi Reference, Stogi with adjustable azimuth, Stogi S and Airline tonearms. Yet to have Four Point cross my way. Familiar/worked with original Stabi, Stabi 2, Stabi S, Stabi Reference, prototype of what later grew into XL. 

Given enough adult beverages, Mr. Kuzma is still likely to say his best ever was Stabi S.  For the money, REALLY hard to beat. Quite popular combo is Stabi S "loaded with everything" and Stogi Reference arm. One unfairly overlooked Kuzma is Reference turntable.- it is anything but cheap yet not expensive enough to cater to those who must have the best in everything - yet it is a VERY nice sounding deck. I've seen several friends with Reference TT replacing Stogi Reference arm with Wheaton Triplanar - only to come back to Kuzma's superb Four Point.

Personally, I came to the conclusion that several Technics decks, which in stock form NEVER really sing, are actually Sleeping Beauties. However, one might well "wear out lips" kissing/trying to weak them up - anything but easy. Far above even relative very experienced DIY level, usually requiring McGyver techniques as the only possible solution without having to build them up from scratch ( $$$$$ ) - like they should have been built in the first place if the designers knew the answer to THE simple question: What is a "record player" ( motor, arm, cartridge )  ? 

With ONE word .

Enjoyed this  latest account, analogsurvivor! Came just in time for my Jasmine Dragon Phoenix Pearl tea...the whole Sleeping Beauty thing was brilliant!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent One 

Enjoyed this  latest account, analogsurvivor! Came just in time for my Jasmine Dragon Phoenix Pearl tea...the whole Sleeping Beauty thing was brilliant!

Read while still using http://www.ebay.com/itm/Displex-LCD-Display-Scratch-Remover-or-Polish-for-All-Touch-Screens-Devices-/290783919936?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item43b4127f40 in order to make the unremovable dustover of one of the Sleeping Beauties presentable again.

While still not really up, snoring she ain't anymore !

Ended up just leaving my Amadeus in the box at the dealer for now as I've nothing to push it with right now. I think I'll go get his help setting it up in a few days setting it up and just bring it home and let it sit for another 2 weeks or so. 

Makes me sad to have such a nice table just sitting there waiting. On another note, I've decided to get the Dynavector P75 phono stage to go with all this stuff as I learned yesterday that the DPS PSU for the Amadeus has 2 outs and can also act as an outboard PSU for the P75 as well. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorbidToaster 

Ended up just leaving my Amadeus in the box at the dealer for now as I've nothing to push it with right now. I think I'll go get his help setting it up in a few days setting it up and just bring it home and let it sit for another 2 weeks or so. 

 

Makes me sad to have such a nice table just sitting there waiting. On another note, I've decided to get the Dynavector P75 phono stage to go with all this stuff as I learned yesterday that the DPS PSU for the Amadeus has 2 outs and can also act as an outboard PSU for the P75 as well. :)

If I may suggest - try at least considering doing basic analog by yourself. Analog, like tubes, is  "alive" in a sense it changes with age/use, requires burn in, etc - and all this minute things might mean make or break of any particular piece of equipment in real life. I hardly imagine your dealer coming to your place adjusting the deck after say 100 hours of use - the adjustment needed might be slight, but we would not go to all these lenghts in predominantely digital age if small details analog thrives on were not important for us.

Never heard P75 - but it should be good. Not so certain if powering both TT and preamp from the same PSU is a clever idea. For my dedicated MC head amp pre preamp only batteries come as real world solution to powering the very source - MC input has highest gain in the chain and is at the input - any PSU problem would cause the most demage here. If the PSU is good and has enough current capability - it may work well enough. I would try to persuade the dealer to lend you another PSU over weekend once you familiarize with your new setup - and let your ears decide whether you need two PSUs or not.

I'll be getting his help to set it up in store most likely and then I'll get him out to my home in a few months (after I move) to take a look at it again. 

There's really not a lot to worry about adjusting on the Amadeus though, which is nice. 

As for the PSU powering both, it's actually designed specifically for this combo. To run the P75 and Amadeus together. I'll be borrowing the combo in a few weeks over the weekend either way, but I'm pretty set on buying it already as it's said to work well. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogsurviver 

If I may suggest - try at least considering doing basic analog by yourself. Analog, like tubes, is  "alive" in a sense it changes with age/use, requires burn in, etc - and all this minute things might mean make or break of any particular piece of equipment in real life. I hardly imagine your dealer coming to your place adjusting the deck after say 100 hours of use - the adjustment needed might be slight, but we would not go to all these lenghts in predominantely digital age if small details analog thrives on were not important for us.

 

Never heard P75 - but it should be good. Not so certain if powering both TT and preamp from the same PSU is a clever idea. For my dedicated MC head amp pre preamp only batteries come as real world solution to powering the very source - MC input has highest gain in the chain and is at the input - any PSU problem would cause the most demage here. If the PSU is good and has enough current capability - it may work well enough. I would try to persuade the dealer to lend you another PSU over weekend once you familiarize with your new setup - and let your ears decide whether you need two PSUs or not.