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post #646 of 2542

Quite embarassing. Everywhere I read, people purchased these vintage items I am considering for less than half of what I have to spend to get them!

It has a new belt, original box and in excellent shape.  I am paying $240.

post #647 of 2542

I'd scrounge up an old SL-1200 on your local Craigslist (there's 10+ on my local CL) slap a 2M Red on it and use the rest for a phono stage. Cambridge 551P if possible. 

 

Good deals can be had on 1200s pretty regularly since every DJ over the age of 20 has probably owned one.

post #648 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbidToaster View Post

I'd scrounge up an old SL-1200 on your local Craigslist (there's 10+ on my local CL) slap a 2M Red on it and use the rest for a phono stage. Cambridge 551P if possible. 

 

Good deals can be had on 1200s pretty regularly since every DJ over the age of 20 has probably owned one.

 

i thought of that but since I should be getting my dads SL1200MK2 later rather than sooner, I thought I'd try something new/different.


Edited by caracara08 - 1/31/13 at 1:47pm
post #649 of 2542
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Quite embarassing. Everywhere I read, people purchased these vintage items I am considering for less than half of what I have to spend to get them!

It has a new belt, original box and in excellent shape.  I am paying $240.


 If it's in really great working condition, that's not a bad price.  Plus that era Pioneer TT looks totally awesome.

post #650 of 2542

They're getting harder to find lately at low(ish) prices but consider the Pioneer PL-518. Great table and there are tons on eBay in great shape for $200.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

 

i thought of that but since I should be getting my dads later rather than sooner, I thought I'd try something new/different.

post #651 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

"And those two requirements and low cost did not go, do not go and will NEVER go together"

 

"Pressure by the consumers on the manufacturers to produce "Ferraris at Fiat price" has always been tremendous" (While you did not directly mean it you were assuming the other guy and I were expecting this)

 

#1. While what you are saying is good for beginners and in all honestly should be compiled for a long-winded BUT worthwhile read for a crash course on the realities of analog appreciation, there are those of us who have already come to grasp this.

 

#2. It is blatantly that you can never get a ferrari for a fiat price in ANY circumstance, be it analog sound or kitchen supplies. However what the other guy and I asked for was a corvette at a corvette price

 

OK. Take just Ortofon 2M series. Red is something that would be better not to produce at all , due to record wear at high frequencies. Blue is nothing special but far safer to records and , as Red, does sound good. It does that in the long run too. Bronze is the first serious cart in the series. Black is a bit better, question is, how much. Look at the price list - it is 7:1 ratio from the lowest to the highest price. 

And any 2M Red owner thinks he/she is "not that far" from the level of 2M Black - here this "Ferrari for the price of Fiat" thinking is  hiding.

 

I only recently found out Ortofon now produces OM3e cartridge. Anybody who remembers at least OM20 (Super) will be aghast just how low did they allow to go with 3e. They would most certainly not be doing it if there was not tremendous pressure from retailers and end consumers to produce "an Ortofon for xy $ ". I am not saying there is no such customers, but I will use an analogy from traffic. No one expects you your minimum drive is a Ferrari - but whatever that drive is, must be able to travel at speed of the surrounding cars, not slowing them down because its max speed is below average legal speed most other vehicles are travelling at. 

 

In phono, record or better said recording engraved in the groove dictate how fast your stylus must respond and what amplitudes must be capable of tracking. You have absolutely no control over that. Cartridge should be " fast enough".

 

Any mastering engineer will tell you it is possible to put signals on disc no cartridge will be able to reproduce. A common sense compromise is in order. But any  reasonably well made record will overtax capabilities of say OM3e - it will distort and it will demage the record. Such cartridge should never be allowed in "traffic" in the first place. There should be a minimum performance that guarantees records will be reasonably well preserved - and below that nothing. This may sound cruel and crude to some - yet once the demage to records, all of them played by such a cart, is heard, you will realize that  you would start to agree with me on this one. Asuming the average cost of a LP is say $ 10 ( lower for S/H abums, higher for premium vinyl, it averages about 10 ) - where is the limit that still warrants the use of really low price carts such as OM3e that costs $ 45 - when for $ 69 you can get OM 10 Super - which has MUCH better stylus (approx similar to 2M Red and MUCH better cartridge body ( OM Super instesad of regular old OM) ). I think saving those 24 $ is about as false economy as it gets in analog. That holds true in case records are repaceable. 

 

Now think of a rare old record in good condition that is almost priceless  - and somehow lands under OM3e ...

 

I certainly understand price constraints - I am anything but rich. Nowhere more than in phono cartridges/styli hollds true saying :

 

I am not that rich to buy cheap. 


Edited by analogsurviver - 1/31/13 at 1:58pm
post #652 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Quite embarassing. Everywhere I read, people purchased these vintage items I am considering for less than half of what I have to spend to get them!

It has a new belt, original box and in excellent shape.  I am paying $240.

Although it can happen you stumble upon a mint TT in thrift store - it is unlikely. $240 for a vintage TT seems steep at first - but if arm bearings are OK and it not only looks right but works right, it is a reasonable price. I should have bookmarked a link for turntables on Amazon - 

despite they sell new  Pro-Jects and Regas and Music Halls etc at entry level prices, they clearly suggested you get more with vintage table at about these prices. Original box/excellent shape/new belt = couple of drops of oil on motor an main TT bearing, possibly new cat/stylus - done !

 

On the other hand - if your 1200 is not too much away, maybe those 240 would be better spent for a better cartridge ....

post #653 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Although it can happen you stumble upon a mint TT in thrift store - it is unlikely. $240 for a vintage TT seems steep at first - but if arm bearings are OK and it not only looks right but works right, it is a reasonable price. I should have bookmarked a link for turntables on Amazon - 

despite they sell new  Pro-Jects and Regas and Music Halls etc at entry level prices, they clearly suggested you get more with vintage table at about these prices. Original box/excellent shape/new belt = couple of drops of oil on motor an main TT bearing, possibly new cat/stylus - done !

 

On the other hand - if your 1200 is not too much away, maybe those 240 would be better spent for a better cartridge ....

Thamk you for your insight.  I dont want to bank on the 1200 coming soon.  Its a long family story.  lol

 

I was looking at all the entry level offerings and almost went with a cheaper Pro-Jects but I just love the look of the wood vintage TTs.  I am looking to get a Marantz 2270 or Sansui receiver and I hope to be done.  I'm hoping one of those receivers will drive my HD650s and sound great with speakers.

post #654 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Does anyone have any recommendations for turntables under 200 used I can find on CL or ebay?   is a Dual 1225 a good start?  I have an incoming SL-1200MK2 but I dont know when it will arrive (probably not any time soon).

WAIT FOR THE SL1200 YOU DOLT

 

EDIT: Alright if you aren't getting it in >1 year, definitely consider vintage direct drive tables.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

 

 

Spool! (Click to show)

 

Decent late '70's - Early '80's Japanese Direct Drive TT - $150-250 (Pioneer PL-530/550/570; Kenwood KD-3070 are just a very few that were mentioned in this thread already, there are many other good ones from that era)

Ortofon 2M Red - $100

Phonopreamps.com TCC TC-750 - $50

 

DONE, for $300-400.  Can you get a better vinyl playback system than that? Well of course.  But will that system sound good? *YUP*.

 

 

I'm seriously considering this 2m Red, and already have that preamp but Analog said that was the problem with my lack of bass, aka subsonic filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Quite embarassing. Everywhere I read, people purchased these vintage items I am considering for less than half of what I have to spend to get them!

It has a new belt, original box and in excellent shape.  I am paying $240.

paying $240 for what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

 

i thought of that but since I should be getting my dads SL1200MK2 later rather than sooner, I thought I'd try something new/different.

SEE REPLY #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

 

Warning: You're about to get learned aka Cartridge guide (Click to show)

 

OK. Take just Ortofon 2M series. Red is something that would be better not to produce at all , due to record wear at high frequencies. Blue is nothing special but far safer to records and , as Red, does sound good. It does that in the long run too. Bronze is the first serious cart in the series. Black is a bit better, question is, how much. Look at the price list - it is 7:1 ratio from the lowest to the highest price. 

And any 2M Red owner thinks he/she is "not that far" from the level of 2M Black - here this "Ferrari for the price of Fiat" thinking is  hiding.

 

I only recently found out Ortofon now produces OM3e cartridge. Anybody who remembers at least OM20 (Super) will be aghast just how low did they allow to go with 3e. They would most certainly not be doing it if there was not tremendous pressure from retailers and end consumers to produce "an Ortofon for xy $ ". I am not saying there is no such customers, but I will use an analogy from traffic. No one expects you your minimum drive is a Ferrari - but whatever that drive is, must be able to travel at speed of the surrounding cars, not slowing them down because its max speed is below average legal speed most other vehicles are travelling at. 

 

In phono, record or better said recording engraved in the groove dictate how fast your stylus must respond and what amplitudes must be capable of tracking. You have absolutely no control over that. Cartridge should be " fast enough".

 

Any mastering engineer will tell you it is possible to put signals on disc no cartridge will be able to reproduce. A common sense compromise is in order. But any  reasonably well made record will overtax capabilities of say OM3e - it will distort and it will demage the record. Such cartridge should never be allowed in "traffic" in the first place. There should be a minimum performance that guarantees records will be reasonably well preserved - and below that nothing. This may sound cruel and crude to some - yet once the demage to records, all of them played by such a cart, is heard, you will realize that  you would start to agree with me on this one. Asuming the average cost of a LP is say $ 10 ( lower for S/H abums, higher for premium vinyl, it averages about 10 ) - where is the limit that still warrants the use of really low price carts such as OM3e that costs $ 45 - when for $ 69 you can get OM 10 Super - which has MUCH better stylus (approx similar to 2M Red and MUCH better cartridge body ( OM Super instesad of regular old OM) ). I think saving those 24 $ is about as false economy as it gets in analog. That holds true in case records are repaceable. 

 

Now think of a rare old record in good condition that is almost priceless  - and somehow lands under OM3e ...

 

I certainly understand price constraints - I am anything but rich. Nowhere more than in phono cartridges/styli hollds true saying :

 

I am not that rich to buy cheap. 

 

 

 

I'll look for vintage carts but the Grado Green/Ortofon Red look like good candidates for new. Analog, compile your posts and put them as a crash course turntable guiide


Edited by BLACKENEDPLAGUE - 1/31/13 at 3:11pm
post #655 of 2542

Dolt here, I love this hobby because I can try out different types of used things and not lose too much money on things.  If I can turn around and sell the PL-41 down the line for even 180-200, it would be well worth the 40$ because I got to try something that not maybe people these days gets to try.  Also, if I can get my dad back into vinyl and set up the 1200 at his house for him, Id be even happier and the money I spent on my TT is more than worth it.  

 

In any case, can anyone tell me if I ordered the wrong pre? TCC TC-760LC (for both MM and MC) but it was 80$ and I went with this because I didnt know what type of TT i would get, MM or MC.  Wondering if its better I go with something else since I now have the TT i figured out.  

 

Any insight would be most appreciated!

post #656 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

WAIT FOR THE SL1200 YOU DOLT

 

EDIT: Alright if you aren't getting it in >1 year, definitely consider vintage direct drive tables.

 

I'm seriously considering this 2m Red, and already have that preamp but Analog said that was the problem with my lack of bass.

paying $240 for what?

SEE REPLY #1

 

I'll look for vintage carts but the Grado Green/Ortofon Red look like good candidates for new. Analog, compile your posts and put them as a crash course turntable guiide

I would not have bothered at all if only SQ was in question. With analog records,  whatever you use to play them ( save laser turntable that requires 100% clean records ) will wear them to a lesser or bigger degree. I tried to warn against going too low with cart quality. Grado Green/Orto 2M Red are at the bottom of still acceptable carts regarding record preservation. Both will sound better than M97xe. If you can somehow scrape together $170-180 for Jico SAS stylus for your existing m97xe, you get vastly better sound and lower record wear at the same time in about the cheapest way possible. You can not improve upon the SAS stylus profile at any cost - any stylus sharper than that would tend to re-cut the groove.

 

Although I generally agree with you regarding waiting for the 1200, please try not to be rude. Sometimes family affairs can be complicated enough to make difference between SL 1200 and Rockport Sirius insignificant and irrelevant in comparison.

post #657 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Dolt here, I love this hobby because I can try out different types of used things and not lose too much money on things.  If I can turn around and sell the PL-41 down the line for even 180-200, it would be well worth the 40$ because I got to try something that not maybe people these days gets to try.  Also, if I can get my dad back into vinyl and set up the 1200 at his house for him, Id be even happier and the money I spent on my TT is more than worth it.  

 

In any case, can anyone tell me if I ordered the wrong pre? TCC TC-760LC (for both MM and MC) but it was 80$ and I went with this because I didnt know what type of TT i would get, MM or MC.  Wondering if its better I go with something else since I now have the TT i figured out.  

 

Any insight would be most appreciated!

 

1. Hey if you can afford it and enjoy trying out new tables, by all means do it. And by putting it like that I might be tempted to sell my SL-1500 down the line.

 

2. At first the level control seems redundant but maybe it is there for the varying output levels of cartridges. MM and MC refer to the types of cartridges and not the turntable. I can't find any information on whether it has a subsonic filter (which should be avoided)


Edited by BLACKENEDPLAGUE - 1/31/13 at 3:55pm
post #658 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

I would not have bothered at all if only SQ was in question. With analog records,  whatever you use to play them ( save laser turntable that requires 100% clean records ) will wear them to a lesser or bigger degree. I tried to warn against going too low with cart quality. Grado Green/Orto 2M Red are at the bottom of still acceptable carts regarding record preservation. Both will sound better than M97xe. If you can somehow scrape together $170-180 for Jico SAS stylus for your existing m97xe, you get vastly better sound and lower record wear at the same time in about the cheapest way possible. You can not improve upon the SAS stylus profile at any cost - any stylus sharper than that would tend to re-cut the groove.

 

Although I generally agree with you regarding waiting for the 1200, please try not to be rude. Sometimes family affairs can be complicated enough to make difference between SL 1200 and Rockport Sirius insignificant and irrelevant in comparison.

 

I did edit the post, but I get excited because mmmmmmmmm SL-1200mk2. Okay so above all, screw the new cartridge and just get the Jico stylus? Would it sound better than the grado/orto? Still need a new preamp... poo

post #659 of 2542
Thread Starter 

@ analogsurviver: I would like to know what evidence you have that the 2M Red causes record wear. It's an elliptical stylus.  It should do no such thing.

 

@ caracara08: I had a TLC-60LC, nice little phono pre.

post #660 of 2542
Good good. Any thoughts on a Marantz 4430? How does it compare to the 2270?
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