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TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE! - Page 43

post #631 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

facedesk! He meant Grado cartridges were GOOD in the 70's, jesus. And I have seen many reviews that say newer Grado's were disappointing, which sucked because I too was interested in one

 

Ah, thank you - I missed that part. But when you say GOOD, do you really mean good?     .... Or, just good. 

 

Thanks for the info. on new Grados.

post #632 of 2998

I posted up some schematics for the Turntable remote. If anyone can help me make one, I'd greatly appreciate any knowledge you can lend my way.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/648897/help-reading-and-constructing-turntable-remote-based-on-schematics

post #633 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

Okay I wasn't giving him crap for advice, I was giving him crap for (still) failing to back up his "there are carts with far better sound at the M97xe price point." statement

 

 

facedesk! He meant Grado cartridges were GOOD in the 70's, jesus. And I have seen many reviews that say newer Grado's were disappointing, which sucked because I too was interested in one

Newer Grados are about just as good as were the old. They went relatively up in price, with nude stylus being available only with wooden user non replaceable styli models starting at $ 500 IIRC.

No modern day equivalent of G1+ or even G2+. Best performance in Grado in bang for the buck department is vintage Grado Signature MCZ cart with its or TLZ stylus. Realistic price? anything between 200-500$, if you opt for the new TLZ stylus $250).

 

Of current cartridges, both Grado Black and Green are sonically superiour to Shure M97xe. As are God only knows how many Audio Technicas that can be had NOS at about the price point - or even Shure's own M97xe "vintage NOS" - if you can still find one.

 

In one of my posts, I stated Grado, IF properly equalized ( either with real analog hardware equalizer or - heavens forbid in an analog setup - digital equalization ) can be extremely good. Grado is by no means flat or linear, its greatest asset is relative freedom from high Q resonance(s) - meaning it can be made extremely flat in response using analog graphic or parametric QUALITY equalizer. That quality = $$$. This bussiness works so far as this example: A friend purposedly brought a CD and LP ( Willie Nelson ) he wanted to showcase that in certain cases CD can smoke LP. His jaw both dropped to the floor and his smile was from ear to ear at the same time - becuse equalized Grado stylus ( vintage, unlikely to be possible to obtain in "real time " ) in P-mount Grado cart on Technics SL series linear tracking TT drove that supposedly better sounding CD right into the ground. Friend's table ( smoked by that CD ) : Benz Micro LP-S, Wheaton Triplanar arm  ( latest model), Kuzma Reference turntable (extremely well adjusted by me ). ANY of the mentioned equipment is beyond price level usually discussed in this thread. The same flat response using EQ could in principle be had from current Grado, but you would have to stretch at least to the most inexpensive model featuring nude mounted stylus. AND a quality EQ.

 

The reason behind Grado's superiority ( if and when properly equalized) ? It has extremely good trackability and very low non linear distortion - a good example of Grado is capable of clean tracking of 110 micrometers at 300 Hz - only handful of carts are capable of comparable performance, of current production only better Audio Technica MMs spring to mind.  Even in best days, Shure cart would go to approx 100 micrometers - today's M97xe is not capable of 90 micrometers withot serious mistracking (demage to the record)  nomatterwhat. 

 

IF you can tame Grado's infamous dance using proper adjustment(s) on proper arm. Which can not be given in a single word or single make/model. And most certainly DOES NOT come cheap.

post #634 of 2998

Alright let's open another can of worms now that we have fully cemented the fact "IF YOU ARE POOR THEN VINYL IS NOT FOR YOU!"

 

Tube phono preamps or solid state preamps?

post #635 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

Alright let's open another can of worms now that we have fully cemented the fact "IF YOU ARE POOR THEN VINYL IS NOT FOR YOU!"

 

Tube phono preamps or solid state preamps?

NEVER said that. It is possible to assemble a perfectly good analog rig on a budget - if you know what is involved and pay only when really there is no way around it. I was trying to convey some of the ideas how it could possibly be done. But given $ 100 budget, my advice would be to go digital.

 

To tube or not to tube - tough one. There were exactly two tube preamps I liked in my life - EAR ( big, companion preeamp to ??519 power amp(s) - that look like 19" pro rack mountable units and do not even try to hint at the fact that hollow state is their thing, so transistoresque their appearence). Guess it was the only time I really liked a Koetsu cart  - it was at the fair in Milan, Italy. My first exposure to EAR and obviously a great one. The second preamp I liked was the big Counterpoint - had it on loan for about a month.

No Audio Research or Conrad Johnson I would care to audition at home - and of those that had potential, all had one zero too much at the right side of the price tag.

 

With tubes, there is usually no way to amplify really low output MC cartridges - they usually use transformer for the first stage of gain - or call off the transistor police and silently include some solid state device at the input. Now I know all aspiring tube designers in the world woud start claiming they got noise "low/acceptable enough". Then I will say cart has maximum 0.1 mV/5cm/sec - game over, unless listening to Niagara Falls in the background is your idea of enjoying vinyl. 

 

Things are far better with MM or high output MCs- and well conceived tube preamps are not bad at all. Particularly passive EQ is much easier implemented in inherently high voltage enviroment of tubes than with transistors.

 

In the end, it boils down to tube quality - premium ones are scarce and costly, I have friends who pay exhorbitant prices for NOS matched pairs/quads from reputable sellers. And there is always dilemma how much one should burn the tubes in, whether it is better to leave them constantly on or switch of and on - etc. VERY expensive game in the end, in which I chose not to participate in.Some can not live without the sound of the tubes - and I can perfectly understand why. Basic tube line level  preamp can be made for low cost - when it comes to phono, you need decent power supply, low noise, high precision components in the RIAA filter - simply look at the pricing of Pro-Ject phono boxes and it will give you approx the relationships of the costs involved. Tubes are again in the game at higher prices - you can not make a really cheap good  phono with tubes, 

 

One thing about tubes - you will have to learn how to perform at least basic maintenance. I have heard stories of dealers/distributors of tubed gear that were very reluctant to actually sell a tubed unit - because they knew they will have to provide assistance in the field, and in some highly touted designs that can really be PITA. If seriously considering tubes, first ask if the sound you have heard at the demo has some reasonable "staying power" - preferably from owner(s) of the brand in question.

 

Two of the  ( phono ) preamps I use are both solid state : Audio General Inc AGI 511 A/H and Technics SU 9070 (both refurbished/upgraded/modified) . Before starting comment regarding mid/late 70s equipment, please DO inform yourself what these two are capable of.

post #636 of 2998
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

Alright let's open another can of worms now that we have fully cemented the fact "IF YOU ARE POOR THEN VINYL IS NOT FOR YOU!"

 

Tube phono preamps or solid state preamps?

 

Budget system = Solid state

 

Higher-end system = Tube

 

L3000.gif

 

I can assure you that I could assemble a VERY nice vinyl playback system, including phono preamp, for $400. If lucky, maybe less.


Edited by Skylab - 1/31/13 at 8:00am
post #637 of 2998

I'm actually living proof that you can do vinyl even if you're a dirt poor college student.

 

lol.

 

But you'll need some serious experienced help to get an at least decent setup.

post #638 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

NEVER said that...... But given $ 100 budget, my advice would be to go digital.

 

"And those two requirements and low cost did not go, do not go and will NEVER go together"

 

"Pressure by the consumers on the manufacturers to produce "Ferraris at Fiat price" has always been tremendous" (While you did not directly mean it you were assuming the other guy and I were expecting this)

 

#1. While what you are saying is good for beginners and in all honestly should be compiled for a long-winded BUT worthwhile read for a crash course on the realities of analog appreciation, there are those of us who have already come to grasp this.

 

#2. It is blatantly that you can never get a ferrari for a fiat price in ANY circumstance, be it analog sound or kitchen supplies. However what the other guy and I asked for was a corvette at a corvette price

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

 

Tubes are good but..., solid-state is less hassle but... (Click to show)

 

To tube or not to tube - tough one. There were exactly two tube preamps I liked in my life - EAR ( big, companion preeamp to ??519 power amp(s) - that look like 19" pro rack mountable units and do not even try to hint at the fact that hollow state is their thing, so transistoresque their appearence). Guess it was the only time I really liked a Koetsu cart  - it was at the fair in Milan, Italy. My first exposure to EAR and obviously a great one. The second preamp I liked was the big Counterpoint - had it on loan for about a month.

No Audio Research or Conrad Johnson I would care to audition at home - and of those that had potential, all had one zero too much at the right side of the price tag.

 

With tubes, there is usually no way to amplify really low output MC cartridges - they usually use transformer for the first stage of gain - or call off the transistor police and silently include some solid state device at the input. Now I know all aspiring tube designers in the world woud start claiming they got noise "low/acceptable enough". Then I will say cart has maximum 0.1 mV/5cm/sec - game over, unless listening to Niagara Falls in the background is your idea of enjoying vinyl. 

 

Things are far better with MM or high output MCs- and well conceived tube preamps are not bad at all. Particularly passive EQ is much easier implemented in inherently high voltage enviroment of tubes than with transistors.

 

In the end, it boils down to tube quality - premium ones are scarce and costly, I have friends who pay exhorbitant prices for NOS matched pairs/quads from reputable sellers. And there is always dilemma how much one should burn the tubes in, whether it is better to leave them constantly on or switch of and on - etc. VERY expensive game in the end, in which I chose not to participate in.Some can not live without the sound of the tubes - and I can perfectly understand why. Basic tube line level  preamp can be made for low cost - when it comes to phono, you need decent power supply, low noise, high precision components in the RIAA filter - simply look at the pricing of Pro-Ject phono boxes and it will give you approx the relationships of the costs involved. Tubes are again in the game at higher prices - you can not make a really cheap good  phono with tubes, 

 

One thing about tubes - you will have to learn how to perform at least basic maintenance. I have heard stories of dealers/distributors of tubed gear that were very reluctant to actually sell a tubed unit - because they knew they will have to provide assistance in the field, and in some highly touted designs that can really be PITA. If seriously considering tubes, first ask if the sound you have heard at the demo has some reasonable "staying power" - preferably from owner(s) of the brand in question.

 

Two of the  ( phono ) preamps I use are both solid state : Audio General Inc AGI 511 A/H and Technics SU 9070 (both refurbished/upgraded/modified) . Before starting comment regarding mid/late 70s equipment, please DO inform yourself what these two are capable of.

 

 

 
Ok I'll look into a better preamp without the low-freq filter.
post #639 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

 

I can assure you that I could assemble a VERY nice vinyl playback system, including phono preamp, for $400. If lucky, maybe less.

 

Then ELABORATE for god's sake, that's all I have been asking for at least 2 pages

post #640 of 2998

Does anyone have any recommendations for turntables under 200 used I can find on CL or ebay?   is a Dual 1225 a good start?  I have an incoming SL-1200MK2 but I dont know when it will arrive (probably not any time soon).

post #641 of 2998
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

Then ELABORATE for god's sake, that's all I have been asking for at least 2 pages

 

Decent late '70's - Early '80's Japanese Direct Drive TT - $150-250 (Pioneer PL-530/550/570; Kenwood KD-3070 are just a very few that were mentioned in this thread already, there are many other good ones from that era)

Ortofon 2M Red - $100

Phonopreamps.com TCC TC-750 - $50

 

DONE, for $300-400.  Can you get a better vinyl playback system than that? Well of course.  But will that system sound good? *YUP*.

post #642 of 2998

If you're looking for something to hold you over, go find some thrift shops near you. You will probably find a few vintage models. Write down the model numbers, anything you see check that the tonearm wires are in tact (I've seen some that were cut) and check that they spin properly. Also check the model of the cartridge/stylus if you can tell what it is. Check the back to see what wires you'll need to connect it and then come back here and do your research. You're likely to only spend $50 or less and you'll be able to actually check out the product before you buy it. You may opt to replace the stylus

Quote:
Originally Posted by caracara08 View Post

Does anyone have any recommendations for turntables under 200 used I can find on CL or ebay?   is a Dual 1225 a good start?  I have an incoming SL-1200MK2 but I dont know when it will arrive (probably not any time soon).

post #643 of 2998
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenman345 View Post

If you're looking for something to hold you over, go find some thrift shops near you. You will probably find a few vintage models. Write down the model numbers, anything you see check that the tonearm wires are in tact (I've seen some that were cut) and check that they spin properly. Also check the model of the cartridge/stylus if you can tell what it is. Check the back to see what wires you'll need to connect it and then come back here and do your research. You're likely to only spend $50 or less and you'll be able to actually check out the product before you buy it. You may opt to replace the stylus

 

I checked a couple thrift shops around here. the electronics racks looked horrible lol.  Thank you for the tips though.  I appreciate it. 

post #644 of 2998

How is a PIONEER PL-41?

post #645 of 2998
Thread Starter 

It's a slightly older deck - was a top of the line player in the late 60's/early 70's.  Belt drive.  If it's well cared for and has a new belt, it's a very nice deck.  It may not be as trouble free as a later direct drive TT, but if it was well taken care of, it might be.  Then there is the question of the asking price.

 

I have a PL-50, which is similar.  Sounds nice, although my PL-50 is quirky.  I got it VERY cheap though :)

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