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post #616 of 2866

I am afraid there is no straight answer to "Which cartridge under $ 200 (approx)  should I get? " Let me explain. A stylus is a precision component and in BCD  times (before CD ) every ad for cart/stylus stressed the point signal can nowhere be better than at the source. True. Even more conscious manufacturers stressed the point while extracting as much as possible out of the groove, it should be done with minimal wear too. Now, younger generations considering analog - did you EVER happened to se a phono equipment ad highlighting the low vinyl wear ?

 

I did not randomly choose which styli to showcase for the Glasrubber cleaning treatment. Shure M97xe is a good example of a run of the mill stylus at about the price point - not particularly good, not particularly bad. Shure V15VxMR, with its tiny Micro Ridge stylus and even more incredible thin walled berylium cantilever was, and still is, one of the analog's top achievements. Currently, there is no stylus/cartridge manufactured today, that has equal or lower effective mass - regardless of price. At least to my knowledge.

 

Denon DL103 IS the cartridge with the most staying power in audio - it is roughly 50 years old. It sold in many versions, most fabled one was DL103D.

Because it was NOT conical stylus tip profile and did have quite a bit better cantilever etc. With quite a bit higher price tag attached. But market demanded incomparably more basic DL103s - and Denon obliged. The fact that a conical stylus tracked at approx 2 grams can not retrieve high frequency information from the inner grooves and even worse, willl erase/wear out higs fast,  be damned and swept under the rug as fast as possible.

 

Denon did produce one of the best carts ever. Denon DL-1000A. Tracking at 0.8 - 1.1 gram IIRC. With incomparably better performance than any 103, accompanied by equally incomparably "better" price.

 

Have you, younger generations, EVER read that reproduction of an LP deteriorates with each play? That it can get appreciably worse only after 5 plays ? Due to the way the signal is recorded on the analog record and due to physics, it boils down to the stylus tip profile and effective mass. Better and more precisely executed stylus tip profile, with lower effective mass, the better the reproduction and less wear.

 

And those two requirements and low cost did not go, do not go and will NEVER go together. Analog, unlike digital, can not be mass produced using some new invention with incomparably better characteristics than just a ( digital ) generation ago. In fact, at the moment no one can match the achievements in analog that peaked around 1985. Technics EPC P100CMK4 cartridge achieved incredible effective mass of 0.055 mg - compare that to anything available today at any price - this value hovers around 0.2 mg these days, even in 5 figure price carts. Shure best V15V / V15VxMR offerings were approx 0.17 mg - at least equal of anything available today. 

 

Pressure by the consumers on the manufacturers to produce "Ferraris at Fiat price" has always been tremendous. Back in the day, late 70s, Grado cartridges looked EXACTLY the same - save the colour of the plastic housing, from the lowest to the highest price. FTE+1 at 13.00 $ ( with price PRINTED on its famous paper tube box ) - to $ 500 for Grado Signature 2 ( it was the most expensive cartridge on the market at the time ). There were minor differences in cartridge itself, but lion's share in price difference went into the stylus - which gets incomparably less attention/looks than the cartridge, which again gets far less attention than say speakers, by even quite conscious audiophiles, let alone general public. 

 

So what does it mean for someone that is in the market for phono cartridge in 2013 ? By being informed and knowing what is the difference between shank mounted and nude mounted stylus, by understanding stylus tip profiles etc, you will be able to weigh your buying decisions properly. For example, let's take Ortofon 2M range under scrutiny. 2M Red is an alliptical shank mounted stylus at $ 100, 2M Blue is a nude mounted elliptical at $ 200, 2M Bronze is a nude mounted Fine Line at $ 400 and 2M Black is nude mounted Shibata at $ 700. I know Bronze and Black are too expensive for novices and lots of people in general - but your records would be far better off in the long run with Blue than with Red, even if direct sound comparison is not that much different as the twice the price difference would suggest. Remember, once the demage to your records is done, no cartridge/stylus can bring it back to original condition - if that is not a sufficient deterrant from using inferiour styli, I do not know what is is.

 

A couple of posts ago, I suggested a Digitrac 300 SE, at 100 EUR + shipping. Its stylus is directly comparable to 2M Bronze - not only comparable, it IS the same stylus, produced by the same company ( Ortofon ), but is a p-mount cart and has higher compliance, which may not suit medium/heavier arms.

 

Take the Jico's SAS styli. They cost dearly at $ 170-180 - or measly peanuts, lf you know it is for all practical purposes the equivalent of anything you can buy for under approx $ 5000  - or 25 times its cost ! Jico's Shibata stylus is also very good and can be had for approx $ 80 - bringing your old(er) (AT) carts back to life at very reasonable cost.

 

As you can see, buying a cartridge/stylus solely on the grounds of absolute price would be, politely put, not the most clever decision. You should opt for  the most performance for your hard earned cash - and that usually is not the most inexpensive model in the line.

 

Or you can play "how low can we/they go" : Red Ed at ultra rock bottom price : http://www.ebay.com/itm/280238098142?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sop%3D15%26_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D280238098142%26_rdc%3D1

post #617 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenman345 View Post

Looks like this would work: http://electronicsvintage.org/sp-10mkii-technics-model-sh-10r-?id=3160964731757

 

Since it's so expensive. I'm talking with my friend about testing the same theory you had and then hacking up an "Easy" button into what I need. 

Something along these lines - small items like remotes, special cables etc tend to get lost - and therefore command high prices if and when they resurface - sometimes with the price beyond all reason. I have seen special cables for Tecnnics SL 10 turntables offered for BIN for more than some auctions for complete turntable WITH cartridge ended. Use common sense in such cases, except if you are not total vintage enthusiast who could drive it to such extremes as insisting on original drive belt 30 years old ( probably no longer functional ) at whatever the cost vs recent production after market equivalent.

post #618 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by solserenade View Post

 

Could you please suggest a few? 

 

Thanks much. beerchug.gif

 

(... the follow-up question will be: How do those other carts at the M97xe price point compare with an M97xe with a Jico SAS stylus "upgrade"?)

Best look here: https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turthttps://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turt

 

In the day ANY concrete independent measurements on phono cartidges are rarer than the proverbial hen's teeth, really a great contribution. You can listen to recordings of few of above measured p-mount carts (including Jico  (for Technics ) ) here http://www.p-mount.net/

 

Jico SAS is THE upgrade - and not "upgrade". But IT IS NOT direct replacement - it will generally require different electrical loading than original stylus in order to produce the most linear frequency response. Please see measurements and comments in the link above.

 

PLEASE NOTE: there are two levels of Jico's SAS styli - metal tube cantilever ( lower cost and performance, available from Jico directly ) and boron rod cantilever ( higher cost higher bperformance, usually available through distributors only). 

 

And if you cornered me with question which NEW CURRENT PRODUCTION cart for x0 $, I would tend to suggest a Grado (Insert the COLOUR corresponding to your price point). If that becomes xx0 $ and still reasonable, Audio Technica 440MLa. And yes, an Ortofon 2M Black is perhaps a bit better sounding, but not 3 times better sounding - the law of diminishing returns is still OK, and between the two in price there is AT150MLX, which can be superior to both - properly installed and adjusted in proper system.

 

If you ask me, which cart I would like to receive under the Christmass tree - the one with the lowest effective mass ever. No longer in production, xxx rare, boils down to the question if you see it on time to place bid or offer - despite the cost in 4 figures. If and when it sporadically appears for sale I am always sleeping, only be able to see the aftermath of the auction...

post #619 of 2866

I was thinking more along the lines of using a schematic to build it. found it online. Not even sure if it'll work with my model. Shorting the two wires doesnt work but the schematic shows a reason for that. Also, the remote was a non-standard accessory, making it even rarer

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Something along these lines - small items like remotes, special cables etc tend to get lost - and therefore command high prices if and when they resurface - sometimes with the price beyond all reason. I have seen special cables for Tecnnics SL 10 turntables offered for BIN for more than some auctions for complete turntable WITH cartridge ended. Use common sense in such cases, except if you are not total vintage enthusiast who could drive it to such extremes as insisting on original drive belt 30 years old ( probably no longer functional ) at whatever the cost vs recent production after market equivalent.

post #620 of 2866

I guess the short answer is Grado.

 

(which is exactly what I wanted to hear, to be honest)

 

Thanks. beerchug.gif


Edited by solserenade - 1/30/13 at 1:05pm
post #621 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenman345 View Post

I was thinking more along the lines of using a schematic to build it. found it online. Not even sure if it'll work with my model. Shorting the two wires doesnt work but the schematic shows a reason for that. Also, the remote was a non-standard accessory, making it even rarer

 

Good that you found a schematic. Honestly, I only looked at a photo of the TT - and could only guess about the sophistication of the electronics ... and thought it was worth a try! rolleyes.gif

post #622 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by solserenade View Post

I guess the short answer is Grado.

 

(which is exactly what I wanted to hear, to be honest)

 

Thanks. beerchug.gif

 

See "Back in the day, late 70s"

post #623 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

I am afraid there is no straight answer to "Which cartridge under $ 200 (approx)  should I get? " Let me explain. A stylus is a precision component and in BCD  times (before CD ) every ad for cart/stylus stressed the point signal can nowhere be better than at the source. True. Even more conscious manufacturers stressed the point while extracting as much as possible out of the groove, it should be done with minimal wear too. Now, younger generations considering analog - did you EVER happened to se a phono equipment ad highlighting the low vinyl wear ?

 

I did not randomly choose which styli to showcase for the Glasrubber cleaning treatment. Shure M97xe is a good example of a run of the mill stylus at about the price point - not particularly good, not particularly bad. Shure V15VxMR, with its tiny Micro Ridge stylus and even more incredible thin walled berylium cantilever was, and still is, one of the analog's top achievements. Currently, there is no stylus/cartridge manufactured today, that has equal or lower effective mass - regardless of price. At least to my knowledge.

 

Denon DL103 IS the cartridge with the most staying power in audio - it is roughly 50 years old. It sold in many versions, most fabled one was DL103D.

Because it was NOT conical stylus tip profile and did have quite a bit better cantilever etc. With quite a bit higher price tag attached. But market demanded incomparably more basic DL103s - and Denon obliged. The fact that a conical stylus tracked at approx 2 grams can not retrieve high frequency information from the inner grooves and even worse, willl erase/wear out higs fast,  be damned and swept under the rug as fast as possible.

 

Denon did produce one of the best carts ever. Denon DL-1000A. Tracking at 0.8 - 1.1 gram IIRC. With incomparably better performance than any 103, accompanied by equally incomparably "better" price.

 

Have you, younger generations, EVER read that reproduction of an LP deteriorates with each play? That it can get appreciably worse only after 5 plays ? Due to the way the signal is recorded on the analog record and due to physics, it boils down to the stylus tip profile and effective mass. Better and more precisely executed stylus tip profile, with lower effective mass, the better the reproduction and less wear.

 

And those two requirements and low cost did not go, do not go and will NEVER go together. Analog, unlike digital, can not be mass produced using some new invention with incomparably better characteristics than just a ( digital ) generation ago. In fact, at the moment no one can match the achievements in analog that peaked around 1985. Technics EPC P100CMK4 cartridge achieved incredible effective mass of 0.055 mg - compare that to anything available today at any price - this value hovers around 0.2 mg these days, even in 5 figure price carts. Shure best V15V / V15VxMR offerings were approx 0.17 mg - at least equal of anything available today. 

 

Pressure by the consumers on the manufacturers to produce "Ferraris at Fiat price" has always been tremendous. Back in the day, late 70s, Grado cartridges looked EXACTLY the same - save the colour of the plastic housing, from the lowest to the highest price. FTE+1 at 13.00 $ ( with price PRINTED on its famous paper tube box ) - to $ 500 for Grado Signature 2 ( it was the most expensive cartridge on the market at the time ). There were minor differences in cartridge itself, but lion's share in price difference went into the stylus - which gets incomparably less attention/looks than the cartridge, which again gets far less attention than say speakers, by even quite conscious audiophiles, let alone general public. 

 

So what does it mean for someone that is in the market for phono cartridge in 2013 ? By being informed and knowing what is the difference between shank mounted and nude mounted stylus, by understanding stylus tip profiles etc, you will be able to weigh your buying decisions properly. For example, let's take Ortofon 2M range under scrutiny. 2M Red is an alliptical shank mounted stylus at $ 100, 2M Blue is a nude mounted elliptical at $ 200, 2M Bronze is a nude mounted Fine Line at $ 400 and 2M Black is nude mounted Shibata at $ 700. I know Bronze and Black are too expensive for novices and lots of people in general - but your records would be far better off in the long run with Blue than with Red, even if direct sound comparison is not that much different as the twice the price difference would suggest. Remember, once the demage to your records is done, no cartridge/stylus can bring it back to original condition - if that is not a sufficient deterrant from using inferiour styli, I do not know what is is.

 

A couple of posts ago, I suggested a Digitrac 300 SE, at 100 EUR + shipping. Its stylus is directly comparable to 2M Bronze - not only comparable, it IS the same stylus, produced by the same company ( Ortofon ), but is a p-mount cart and has higher compliance, which may not suit medium/heavier arms.

 

Take the Jico's SAS styli. They cost dearly at $ 170-180 - or measly peanuts, lf you know it is for all practical purposes the equivalent of anything you can buy for under approx $ 5000  - or 25 times its cost ! Jico's Shibata stylus is also very good and can be had for approx $ 80 - bringing your old(er) (AT) carts back to life at very reasonable cost.

 

As you can see, buying a cartridge/stylus solely on the grounds of absolute price would be, politely put, not the most clever decision. You should opt for  the most performance for your hard earned cash - and that usually is not the most inexpensive model in the line.

 

Or you can play "how low can we/they go" : Red Ed at ultra rock bottom price : http://www.ebay.com/itm/280238098142?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sop%3D15%26_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D280238098142%26_rdc%3D1

 

 

 

You had a nice ramble, I bet that felt good. However you never answered our question directly when we replied to

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

... Jico SAS stylus route (approx $ 170-180) and using original stylus supplied with the cartridge for poor condition vinyl only, there are carts with far better sound at the M97xe price point.

If you had something in mind why not share?

post #624 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

I am afraid there is no straight answer to "Which cartridge under $ 200 (approx)  should I get? " Let me explain. A stylus is a precision component and in BCD  times (before CD ) every ad for cart/stylus stressed the point signal can nowhere be better than at the source. True. Even more conscious manufacturers stressed the point while extracting as much as possible out of the groove, it should be done with minimal wear too. Now, younger generations considering analog - did you EVER happened to se a phono equipment ad highlighting the low vinyl wear ?

 

I did not randomly choose which styli to showcase for the Glasrubber cleaning treatment. Shure M97xe is a good example of a run of the mill stylus at about the price point - not particularly good, not particularly bad. Shure V15VxMR, with its tiny Micro Ridge stylus and even more incredible thin walled berylium cantilever was, and still is, one of the analog's top achievements. Currently, there is no stylus/cartridge manufactured today, that has equal or lower effective mass - regardless of price. At least to my knowledge.

 

Denon DL103 IS the cartridge with the most staying power in audio - it is roughly 50 years old. It sold in many versions, most fabled one was DL103D.

Because it was NOT conical stylus tip profile and did have quite a bit better cantilever etc. With quite a bit higher price tag attached. But market demanded incomparably more basic DL103s - and Denon obliged. The fact that a conical stylus tracked at approx 2 grams can not retrieve high frequency information from the inner grooves and even worse, willl erase/wear out higs fast,  be damned and swept under the rug as fast as possible.

 

Denon did produce one of the best carts ever. Denon DL-1000A. Tracking at 0.8 - 1.1 gram IIRC. With incomparably better performance than any 103, accompanied by equally incomparably "better" price.

 

Have you, younger generations, EVER read that reproduction of an LP deteriorates with each play? That it can get appreciably worse only after 5 plays ? Due to the way the signal is recorded on the analog record and due to physics, it boils down to the stylus tip profile and effective mass. Better and more precisely executed stylus tip profile, with lower effective mass, the better the reproduction and less wear.

 

And those two requirements and low cost did not go, do not go and will NEVER go together. Analog, unlike digital, can not be mass produced using some new invention with incomparably better characteristics than just a ( digital ) generation ago. In fact, at the moment no one can match the achievements in analog that peaked around 1985. Technics EPC P100CMK4 cartridge achieved incredible effective mass of 0.055 mg - compare that to anything available today at any price - this value hovers around 0.2 mg these days, even in 5 figure price carts. Shure best V15V / V15VxMR offerings were approx 0.17 mg - at least equal of anything available today. 

 

Pressure by the consumers on the manufacturers to produce "Ferraris at Fiat price" has always been tremendous. Back in the day, late 70s, Grado cartridges looked EXACTLY the same - save the colour of the plastic housing, from the lowest to the highest price. FTE+1 at 13.00 $ ( with price PRINTED on its famous paper tube box ) - to $ 500 for Grado Signature 2 ( it was the most expensive cartridge on the market at the time ). There were minor differences in cartridge itself, but lion's share in price difference went into the stylus - which gets incomparably less attention/looks than the cartridge, which again gets far less attention than say speakers, by even quite conscious audiophiles, let alone general public. 

 

So what does it mean for someone that is in the market for phono cartridge in 2013 ? By being informed and knowing what is the difference between shank mounted and nude mounted stylus, by understanding stylus tip profiles etc, you will be able to weigh your buying decisions properly. For example, let's take Ortofon 2M range under scrutiny. 2M Red is an alliptical shank mounted stylus at $ 100, 2M Blue is a nude mounted elliptical at $ 200, 2M Bronze is a nude mounted Fine Line at $ 400 and 2M Black is nude mounted Shibata at $ 700. I know Bronze and Black are too expensive for novices and lots of people in general - but your records would be far better off in the long run with Blue than with Red, even if direct sound comparison is not that much different as the twice the price difference would suggest. Remember, once the demage to your records is done, no cartridge/stylus can bring it back to original condition - if that is not a sufficient deterrant from using inferiour styli, I do not know what is is.

 

A couple of posts ago, I suggested a Digitrac 300 SE, at 100 EUR + shipping. Its stylus is directly comparable to 2M Bronze - not only comparable, it IS the same stylus, produced by the same company ( Ortofon ), but is a p-mount cart and has higher compliance, which may not suit medium/heavier arms.

 

Take the Jico's SAS styli. They cost dearly at $ 170-180 - or measly peanuts, lf you know it is for all practical purposes the equivalent of anything you can buy for under approx $ 5000  - or 25 times its cost ! Jico's Shibata stylus is also very good and can be had for approx $ 80 - bringing your old(er) (AT) carts back to life at very reasonable cost.

 

As you can see, buying a cartridge/stylus solely on the grounds of absolute price would be, politely put, not the most clever decision. You should opt for  the most performance for your hard earned cash - and that usually is not the most inexpensive model in the line.

 

Or you can play "how low can we/they go" : Red Ed at ultra rock bottom price : http://www.ebay.com/itm/280238098142?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sop%3D15%26_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D280238098142%26_rdc%3D1

 

This is, as we say, "all over the place". Thank you though! beerchug.gif

post #625 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by solserenade View Post

 

This is, as we say, "all over the place". Thank you though! beerchug.gif

You could say it that way. I could say "Ortofon 2M Red for 100 $" - which is about correct at the first moment. And you would curse me in x years time for not telling you to get at least 2M Blue after you would menage to get a "proper" stylus - because records are ireplaceable and a single top LP can cost more than 2M Blue. I simply wanted to see you about as wide possiblity range that is still reasonably priced - not exceeding approx $ 250. And  probably pointing how you can get a great stylus for very reasonable price. Ask manufacturer or retailer - you would always get recommended the latest model and what is currently in stock. They generally do not do "vintage", even if their own production - and these can be real bargains.( Digitrac 300 SE ).

post #626 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

You had a nice ramble, I bet that felt good. However you never answered our question directly when we replied to

 

 

If you had something in mind why not share?

Please read in between the lines. If you know the difference between and shank mounted and nude mounted stylus, tip profiles etc - you would be certainly able to make an informed decision when buying say vintage NOS cart/stylus.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with GOOD styli from 70s. If they were stored under norml household conditions, away from light, Shure, Ortofon, Audio Technica and Grado all survive generally well. 

V15III, AT15/20 , VMSx0, Grados from that time are still viable today - and a good sample of V15III smokes present M97xe many times over. AT 15/20 is still a VERY desirable cart - despite being almost 40 years old; it would made mincemeat from say Ortofon 2M Red. If you compare Grado from late 70s/early 80s to current line, you would find that for the same real quality ( nude and not shank mounted stylus ) you have to reach now further in your pocket than back in the day.

 

There certainly was progress in phono cartridges - but in higher price segment. Say from $ 500 and up. At below $ 300, you would always struggle with basics, with an odd AT440MLa being an exception confirming the rule. Comparable cart by other manufacturers would  approach/exceed  $ 500 mark.

 

My direct recommendation for best bang for the buck ? Easy - Benz Micro Ace - in whatever output version you require. But it costs what it costs and although it is one of the greatest values, I realize it is too much $$$ for many.

 

There is LOTS of vintage carts/styli that could be interesting. Yet they are far too scarce in supply to be recommended on any forum, let alone one mainly intended to help starting in analog.

Using/buying vintage carts requires knowledge and understanding someone just starting can not possibly have - once you master basics and learn what fčoats your boat, you can proceed from there. We have not even mentioned Moving Coil cartridges for real on this thread - because they cost more and just do not make sense to produce say $100 MC today - because it would be the worst possible propaganda for its operating principle if available - jus as it would be say a new car for $ 3000.

 

What you CAN do is to download some samples from the links I have provided - back in the day, there was no such option and all you could rely on was a review. From these downloads, it should be clear what is you are after sonically - and then try to make financial ends meet. We had to buy, try, and if not satisfied, re-sell, loose some money in the process, and repeat it all over again. There are downloads available for most current carts - use them and decide with your own ears ( and wallets...).

 

Remember one thing though - phono preamps used for recordings of those downloads are quite serious and you can not expect the same kind of performance from $50 phono preamp. The relative differences among carts are more easily discernible with better preamps, no point using budget ones to show the difference among carts.

 

My advice would always be the same - if the finances do not permit both good sound and low wear to vinyl, go for low wear. It will preserve records for the future. There is no greater regret in all of audio than realizing you have demaged, for whatever reason, your entire vinyl collection. Because truly superb carts will ruthlessly throw you that saddest of facts right in your face - too late to do anything about it. This honest statement is far more worth than "I recommend Cart XY for zy $".

post #627 of 2866
Thread Starter 

Gracious, analogsurviver is offering advice, and getting crapped on for it?  Come on, people.  You can either take his advice or not, no need to be rude about it. I think his posts are awesome. I don't completely agree with everything, but such is the subjective nature of audio.  But there is no need to be rude to someone who is only trying to be helpful.

post #628 of 2866

I'm thinking logorrhea -- Because glass is amorphous, not a crystal.

 

........

 

BLACKENEDPLAGUE - Thank you. I visit the 1970s often, and will consider cart shopping next time I'm there. beerchug.gif

 

.....


Edited by solserenade - 1/30/13 at 4:42pm
post #629 of 2866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Gracious, analogsurviver is offering advice, and getting crapped on for it?  Come on, people.  You can either take his advice or not, no need to be rude about it. I think his posts are awesome. I don't completely agree with everything, but such is the subjective nature of audio.  But there is no need to be rude to someone who is only trying to be helpful.

 

Okay I wasn't giving him crap for advice, I was giving him crap for (still) failing to back up his "there are carts with far better sound at the M97xe price point." statement

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by solserenade View Post

I'm thinking logorrhea -- Because glass is amorphous, not a crystal.

 

........

 

BLACKENEDPLAGUE - Thank you. I visit the 1970s often, and will consider cart shopping next time I'm there. beerchug.gif

 

.....

 

facedesk! He meant Grado cartridges were GOOD in the 70's, jesus. And I have seen many reviews that say newer Grado's were disappointing, which sucked because I too was interested in one

post #630 of 2866
Thread Starter 

I personally don't much like modern Grado carts.  I had Shure M97xE and it does some nice things, but its on the warm and fuzzy side of things. For some people and systems, it's just the ticket.  I personally think its well worth the extra $20 for an Ortofon 2M Red. I have one of those which I use as a budget reference.

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