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post #511 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbidToaster View Post

I like the idea of the 310LP buying the pieces separately and it's one of my dealer's favorite stages. It'd allow me to get a new table much sooner and then get the PSU after that. 

 

How would you describe the sound of the 310LP? I've heard good and bad things and even if it's a bit too analytical it'll pair well in my speaker system because of the Leben and Harbeths being so 'romantic'.

 

Very quiet, very accurate, very spacious

I would agree, it definitely leans towards the analytical, but just slightly.

Very wide bandwidth, bass goes as deep and as tight as your turntable will allow

Very dynamic, punchy, lots of slam but also conveys microdynamics and subtlety (I'm not too up on the audiophile lingo)

The main thing is this pre-amp is Accurate.

It doesn't seem to add anything.

Of course, always harder to determine if a component is taking something away.

 

When you compare the Moon 110LP to the 310LP, the 110LP almost sounds like it is reproducing mono.

It isn't of course, but when you compare the two, the 310LP sounds very spacious left to right and front to back.

For reference, the 110LP is a touch more accurate than the Project Tube Box SE II, but the SE II adds a nice touch of tube euphonics 

 

You probably hear bad things about it because it is not very euphonic, that's OK, some people like a touch of euphony, they probably need/love tubes.

No one will ever mistake this for a tube amp, but it certainly isn't a "solid state" sounding amp.

post #512 of 2608

Nice to hear. Definitely a top contender along with a few others. I think it'd pair well with my Leben system due to the Leben being all the euphony I'd need.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

Very quiet, very accurate, very spacious

I would agree, it definitely leans towards the analytical, but just slightly.

Very wide bandwidth, bass goes as deep and as tight as your turntable will allow

Very dynamic, punchy, lots of slam but also conveys microdynamics and subtlety (I'm not too up on the audiophile lingo)

The main thing is this pre-amp is Accurate.

It doesn't seem to add anything.

Of course, always harder to determine if a component is taking something away.

 

When you compare the Moon 110LP to the 310LP, the 110LP almost sounds like it is reproducing mono.

It isn't of course, but when you compare the two, the 310LP sounds very spacious left to right and front to back.

For reference, the 110LP is a touch more accurate than the Project Tube Box SE II, but the SE II adds a nice touch of tube euphonics 

 

You probably hear bad things about it because it is not very euphonic, that's OK, some people like a touch of euphony, they probably need/love tubes.

No one will ever mistake this for a tube amp, but it certainly isn't a "solid state" sounding amp.

post #513 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

Maybe it takes our brain that long to say, "Okay, I can accept this... finally."

 

 

 biggrin.gif

 

I think we should be equally open to the idea that "warm up time" is for the human and not the equipment :)

 

I do experience a sense that if my Sugden headphone amp has been off for a while, then it will not sound good for about 30 mins after switch-on.

 

However I would love the opportunity to try this out in a double blind listening test. Difficult to set up, but would be worthwhile.

 

It might very well be that the heated amplifier does indeed work better than the cold one, but it would be nice to ascertain that this is the case.

 

I take a great interest in environmental issues and so I don't like having amplifiers on unnecessarily. Fortunately my headphone amp does not require masses of energy even though it is class A. However with an amplifier for speakers the power required can be really great and so it is a huge waste to have them on unnecessarily.

 

I do not keep my speaker amplifier on if I am not using it, instead I just turn it on 30 mins before planned use.

post #514 of 2608
Skylab, I can get the Micro Seiki for 400, as it turns out. Still feel like that's money better spent on something like this (assuming the AT cart is decent/low mileage) than an entry-level belt drive from Rega, Pro-ject, et al?
Edited by dmcs414 - 1/20/13 at 4:18pm
post #515 of 2608
Thread Starter 
It's what I would do, yes, assuming that the MS is in good condition and the cartridge is a decent one and next to new. I still think that's a kind of high price for that TT though, unless the AT cart is high end one (which it didn't appear to be from the pics).
post #516 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by p a t r i c k View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

Maybe it takes our brain that long to say, "Okay, I can accept this... finally."

 

 

 biggrin.gif

 

I think we should be equally open to the idea that "warm up time" is for the human and not the equipment :)

 

I do experience a sense that if my Sugden headphone amp has been off for a while, then it will not sound good for about 30 mins after switch-on.

 

However I would love the opportunity to try this out in a double blind listening test. Difficult to set up, but would be worthwhile.

 

It might very well be that the heated amplifier does indeed work better than the cold one, but it would be nice to ascertain that this is the case.

 

I take a great interest in environmental issues and so I don't like having amplifiers on unnecessarily. Fortunately my headphone amp does not require masses of energy even though it is class A. However with an amplifier for speakers the power required can be really great and so it is a huge waste to have them on unnecessarily.

 

I do not keep my speaker amplifier on if I am not using it, instead I just turn it on 30 mins before planned use.

 

I will briefly offer my personal experience over the years. Time does not permit, but if I wanted to I could really expand on this, typing for days rolleyes.gif. However, dinner awaits. But, where I'm at emotionally will influence how long it takes me to come online and connect to the music.

 

And it's been my experience that gear does benefit from warm up and play-in. I have long practiced scheduling my listening sessions. Not the only ceremony I practice...and pay attention to. But sometimes, things come up and runneth over my scheduled seating inside the listening room - Burn baby, burn.biggrin.gif And this has allowed me to observe different sweet spots with different rigs. 

 

One thing you could try is listening to music for say, 20 minutes, under two conditions: 1) Cold. 2) Extended warm up, but do not allow yourself access. This way, your brain isn't warming up and simply walk in cold and start listening to the fully warmed up rig. 

 

I often have busy nights (very). And when I know in advance that the night's session will be short, I allow more warm up in advance to allow the limited listening period to be at its sweetest possible. I've also had some very long overnight sessions and have observed both instruments (myself & the rig) come on song at different points in the session from the beginning.

post #517 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

I appreciate your thanks beerchug.gif. It is approx at least one hour per stylus work, as getting the thing in position and focus is not easy. I have selected the best shots among many. Should a "real dirty, neglected and totally in vinyl embedded stylus" again come my way ( ebay or other sources ), I will post "before" and "after" Glasrubber cleaning pics. IF and WHEN, usually comes with an odd (ab)used turntable, of which I have no intention to buy anymore any time soon.

 

A version of Glasrubber is in Europe sold by Conrad. Should anyone have the Order No. for it, it would be appreciated, as it is perhaps the easiest way to get this device that almost became extinct due to the fact almost all technical drawing is now on computers and very few need it for its originally intended purpose.

 

As it makes no sense to "invent hot water all over again" and write my own version of it, here a good  GREAT link regarding stylus tip profiles:

 

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

 

It is about as condensed and accurate info on the subject as possible.

We appreciate the contributions you continue to make. When Glasrubber was first mentioned, I searched high & low to no avail. Hope someone comes through this winter...sounds like something I really really want!

post #518 of 2608

The only thing that I've really ever left on 24/7 has been my phono stage...and that's only because the power switch it on the back and I keep it under my turntable. :D

post #519 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by p a t r i c k View Post

 

I think we should be equally open to the idea that "warm up time" is for the human and not the equipment :)

 

I do experience a sense that if my Sugden headphone amp has been off for a while, then it will not sound good for about 30 mins after switch-on.

 

However I would love the opportunity to try this out in a double blind listening test. Difficult to set up, but would be worthwhile.

 

It might very well be that the heated amplifier does indeed work better than the cold one, but it would be nice to ascertain that this is the case.

 

I take a great interest in environmental issues and so I don't like having amplifiers on unnecessarily. Fortunately my headphone amp does not require masses of energy even though it is class A. However with an amplifier for speakers the power required can be really great and so it is a huge waste to have them on unnecessarily.

 

I do not keep my speaker amplifier on if I am not using it, instead I just turn it on 30 mins before planned use.

 

From a purely technical, analytical point of view, I have no problem accepting 30 minutes warm up.

It really does take a bit of time for the various parameters to settle: DC offset, quiescent current, etc.

 

Any other changes may be due to changes in powerline noise, radiated noise.

 

BTW, I used to design Analog Signal Processing hardware. Professional geek!


Edited by Chris J - 1/20/13 at 7:04pm
post #520 of 2608

Turns out the TT my father had and I will be getting sometime in the near future is the Technics SL-1200MK2.  So for now, this AT-LP50 is fine. :) I am so excited. 

post #521 of 2608

Regarding warm up time - yes, it is important for equipment and the listener. Just remember the last time you were nearly forced to be late for the concert due to "whatever" ad were still making your way towards your seat while the conductor was receiving his applause for the appearence on the stage. You probably "missed" the composition first on the programme, as being thrown from bustle of everyday into some activity definitely requiring peace of mind is not exactly prescription to be able to follow the meticuolosly prepared and executed performance.

 

Equipment does take its time to reach optimum performance. Just an example; back in my retail days, due to my expereience I decided to give coleagues from hifi department a hand during our yearly audio show. We were running IIRC a Krell SACD player, Pro-Ject P6 ( the big acylic platter thing ) with Pro-Ject K6 cart ( Grado Green rebrand ? ) and Musical Fidelity integrated amp ( something big, TOTL or near that ) and "probably" Bowers & Wilkins or Dali speakers ( alternating ). It is a friday through sunday three day event http://www.napovednik.com/dogodek226513_multimedia_hi_fi_show

( a little exercise in translating ) and I noticed that sound towards the evening on friday was far better than in the morning of saturday - it became comparable after some 4 hours or so after switching on. Other coleagues noticed this too. Yet, come the evening, they still wanted to power the equipment down! I protested , mildly at first, and increased the intensity until they gave up and decided to leave equipment on overnight. ( I can perfectly understand it, as our boss would arrive before anybody else to check for any lights/computers/etc left accidentally on and would deduct that from one's salary ) But we paid the hotel rooms for three days/nights anyway, no repremanding from boss possible, so....

 

Come sunday morning. While competitor equipment was still yawning, ours was purring like a well fed and pampered cat. We made more sales on that sunday than previous two days combined.

 

There is a thing called "time constant". A transient ( like powering equipment up ) requires 5 times the "time constant" time in order to settle to its final condition. If it is a small transistor or IC, it is brief - if it is a mommoth class A power amp of say 50 kg and more, it will not reach this condition probably to the end of your listening session ! It is at least an hour for "normal" setups to really begin purring, not just stop hissing back at you.

 

Now I know, there are enviromentalists among you, and whenever I do get to see big class A equipment actually in operation, I always think : what if EVERYBODY were using setups like this ?!! Power grids would break down, and effect on enviroment would be disastrous.

 

Like with everything in life, a little compromise is necessary.  But you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

post #522 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Regarding warm up time - yes, it is important for equipment and the listener. Just remember the last time you were nearly forced to be late for the concert due to "whatever" ad were still making your way towards your seat while the conductor was receiving his applause for the appearence on the stage. You probably "missed" the composition first on the programme, as being thrown from bustle of everyday into some activity definitely requiring peace of mind is not exactly prescription to be able to follow the meticuolosly prepared and executed performance.

Equipment does take its time to reach optimum performance. Just an example; back in my retail days, due to my expereience I decided to give coleagues from hifi department a hand during our yearly audio show. We were running IIRC a Krell SACD player, Pro-Ject P6 ( the big acylic platter thing ) with Pro-Ject K6 cart ( Grado Green rebrand ? ) and Musical Fidelity integrated amp ( something big, TOTL or near that ) and "probably" Bowers & Wilkins or Dali speakers ( alternating ). It is a friday through sunday three day event http://www.napovednik.com/dogodek226513_multimedia_hi_fi_show
( a little exercise in translating ) and I noticed that sound towards the evening on friday was far better than in the morning of saturday - it became comparable after some 4 hours or so after switching on. Other coleagues noticed this too. Yet, come the evening, they still wanted to power the equipment down! I protested , mildly at first, and increased the intensity until they gave up and decided to leave equipment on overnight. ( I can perfectly understand it, as our boss would arrive before anybody else to check for any lights/computers/etc left accidentally on and would deduct that from one's salary ) But we paid the hotel rooms for three days/nights anyway, no repremanding from boss possible, so....

Come sunday morning. While competitor equipment was still yawning, ours was purring like a well fed and pampered cat. We made more sales on that sunday than previous two days combined.

There is a thing called "time constant". A transient ( like powering equipment up ) requires 5 times the "time constant" time in order to settle to its final condition. If it is a small transistor or IC, it is brief - if it is a mommoth class A power amp of say 50 kg and more, it will not reach this condition probably to the end of your listening session ! It is at least an hour for "normal" setups to really begin purring, not just stop hissing back at you.

Now I know, there are enviromentalists among you, and whenever I do get to see big class A equipment actually in operation, I always think : what if EVERYBODY were using setups like this ?!! Power grids would break down, and effect on enviroment would be disastrous.

Like with everything in life, a little compromise is necessary.  But you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

Hi,
I guess english is your second language.
I have enough trouble with one (english).

I think you are referring to a thermal time constant.
I could imagine that it may take up to 2 hours for a 50 kg Class A power amp to thermally stabilize.

Maybe I should stop using my power hungry Pass Labs amp when the other guys stop driving pick up trucks and SUVs! LOL!
Edited by Chris J - 1/21/13 at 9:25am
post #523 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


Hi,
I guess english is your second language.
I have enough trouble with one (english).

I think you are referring to a thermal time constant.
I could imagine that it may take 2 hours for a 50 kg Class A power amp the thermally stabilize.

Maybe I should stop using my power hungry Pass Labs amp when the other guys stop driving pick up trucks and SUVs! LOL!

Your guess is a correct one. On both counts.

 

If I consider the limited amount of resources of this planet, on all three counts.

 

(Wrote a guy who designed a 500VA+ consumption headphone amplifier ... not going to be outdone by a Pass A 40 LOL )

 

Of all the guys who own a Plinius approx 100 W/ch amp that is switchable between AB and pure A class operation, I have yet to witness a single ocassion during my visits this "ham&eggs stove" was not only lukewarm to the touch ...

 

Because seeing electricity consumption meter belonging to my appartement and those of the neighbours' when my big headphone amp was in operation was apallingly alarming - mine was racing like crazy and neighbours' barely moving in comparison. The mentioned Plinius must have approx the same consumption and things like these will run up the electricity bill considerably.

 

In storage since 1999, but looking ever more longingly towards that crate ...

post #524 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Your guess is a correct one. On both counts.

 

If I consider the limited amount of resources of this planet, on all three counts.

 

(Wrote a guy who designed a 500VA+ consumption headphone amplifier ... not going to be outdone by a Pass A 40 LOL )

 

Of all the guys who own a Plinius approx 100 W/ch amp that is switchable between AB and pure A class operation, I have yet to witness a single ocassion during my visits this "ham&eggs stove" was not only lukewarm to the touch ...

 

Because seeing electricity consumption meter belonging to my appartement and those of the neighbours' when my big headphone amp was in operation was apallingly alarming - mine was racing like crazy and neighbours' barely moving in comparison. The mentioned Plinius must have approx the same consumption and things like these will run up the electricity bill considerably.

 

In storage since 1999, but looking ever more longingly towards that crate ...

 

I live in North America, well Canada, actually.

I think a European would be shocked at all the people driving MASSIVE pick up trucks and SUVs in North America.

Everyone knows someone with a massive pick up truck with an ultra clean pick up truck bed,  i.e. they don't even need a pick up truck.

 

My power consumption hungry Pass Labs amp is used to drive my speakers.

Maybe I should go for something more energy efficient...........confused_face_2.gif

 

500 VA consumption headphone amp is crazy, insane, ludicrous, pointless...........confused_face_2.gif


Edited by Chris J - 1/21/13 at 9:27am
post #525 of 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

I live in North America, well Canada, actually.

I think a European would be shocked at all the people driving MASSIVE pick up trucks and SUVs in North America.

Everyone knows someone with a massive pick up truck with an ultra clean pick up truck bed,  i.e. they don't even need a pick up truck.

 

My power consumption hungry Pass Labs amp is used to drive my speakers.

Maybe I should go for something more energy efficient...........confused_face_2.gif

 

500 VA consumption headphone amp is crazy, insane, ludicrous, pointless...........confused_face_2.gif

I was shocked by the rationalism Swiss go about their cars - or to be precise, the way they went about it in 1990. In Zurich, during working days of the week, WW Golf was a pretty high class drive. Compared to "nearby" Munchen, Germany, where there was any number of bigger BMWs always on display, Zurich looked like a poor city when it comes to cars.

 

Come sunday - there was no Rolls or Lambo or Corvette or  ( insert your dream car here ) - that was not on the motorway ... 

 

That 500 VA consumption ( pure class A, that is to say it draws that power regardless of its input/output ) headphone amp is crazy, insane, ludicruos, pointless ........UNTIL

 

you hear itwink_face.gif !

 

I guess re-opening that crate is a few steps closer now...

 

I live in the capital of Slovenia ( On the Sunny Side of the Alps was Slovenia's old tourist slogan ) - Ljubljana. A great intro to our city is this vid found using Google picture search : 

 

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