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post #436 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Analog tape and vinyl of 60s are OK and in a way better than what you can use today. Regarding mics and cutters I would not be so sure. 

 

What was meant with more problematic was this : in lots of analog masters for the LP or analog master tape themselves a certain degree of compression had to be used in order to squeeze the lenght of the programe on disc and/or make it playable by majority of likely players. If you play records from 60s with an player that is not limited in dynamic range too much, it will reveal these shortcomings - it will not explode in the room with sound the way a really good uncompressed recording would. Wish vinyl was not so limited in bass and not so hard to record in treble - just take a look at the requirements for the master tape meant for LP by any of the firms still doing analog disc mastering and you will understand. It really does take great skill and experience to put anything approaching the dynamic range of digital, let alone feed from the mike as in direct to disc, on the actual vinyl record. It was only with the introduction of the latest generation of cutter heads by Neumann and Ortofon cooled with gas that became possible to put high frequency signals on disc comparable to those found on analog master tape. Those appeared at the end of 70s/begin 80s and although are far better than their predecessors, that does not preclude the possibility of making excellent recordings/masters with them - if not too much HF energy for therm is present, in hands of a skilled operator they can be every bit as good as those made with the latest generation of cutterheads.

 

Tape from the 60s has held over time rather well - not something that can be said about their sucessors that could take much higher level signals when new, enabling better signal to noise ratio -  only to deteriorate with intervening years sometimes to totally unusable condition; in worst case they phisically fall to pieces - game over.

 

Basically - I will try to find any possible flaw in anything - not for discrediting it, but for finding ways to improve upon something that already has great qualities to begin with. You should always read my posts with this in mind - if and when I am lukewarm or silent about it, it is usually because I feel it would not be worth deadhorse.gif-.This analog horse is still well alive and kicking, only I feel a new "horseshoe" etc is perhaps in order to keep it competitive for long time to come.

 

Intersting, while attending the demonstration of the then new Quiex sv http://www.classicrecords.com/blog/ record at the audio fair in Milan, Italy approx 10 years ago, there was quite a fierce opposition from the "analog camp" - the dynamic range, bass extension and channel separation of these LPs was too close to digital for their preconceptions as to what analog should sound like ! IMHO an engineer working with master tape and trying to get his/hers  pressed LP as close as humanly possible to the master tape is better suited to judge if he has suceeded or not. I never heard a master tape in home, only a few times in studio - and it is usually quite different/better from the LP issued - (  but not always - half speed mastering in particular can improve above master tape ). In this view, reaction of listeners used to normal vinyl is quite understandable - but you should not praise something for its actual weaknesses.

 

With increased quality, both analog and digital should start approaching the same sound - each  from another side, but if properly done, clearly pointing at meeting at the same point in hopefully not too distant future. If it starts diverging, this is clear indication something went wrong. Each has its own set of streghts and weaknesesses - and I will try my best to help either to get nearer to that goal. 

 

Because music is what matters in the end - and its message is sometimes so sublime and fragile that can be all too easily mangled by technicalities.

I hope we will reach that level where this mangling to technical reasons will be more of a rare fluke than regular occurence ASAP.

I've done those comparisons of an analog master uncompressed acoustic recording vs vinyl on top kit and I think you'd be surprised as well. The problem is that most turntable/cartridge/phono stage combos do have a lot of coloration and some compresion but that's not a format comparison. It becomes a kit/cartidge loading comparison. PM me an email and I'll send you a couple tracks of a 60s classical vinyl 192 rip.


Edited by goodvibes - 1/14/13 at 11:45am
post #437 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

I've done those comparisons of an analog master uncompressed acoustic recording vs vinyl on top kit and I think you'd be surprised as well. The problem is that most turntable/cartridge/phono stage combos do have a lot of coloration and some compresion but that's not a format comparison. It becomes a kit/cartidge loading comparison. PM me an email and I'll send you a couple tracks of a 60s classical vinyl 192 rip.

Always intersted in such comparisons. Wish I could afford analog recording - I record DSD now, which is the closest sounding digital compared to analog. Much of the criticism towards old great analog stems from this recording experience - there is no dynamic range ot bass limitations with DSD and once you get accustomed to such quality, it is hard to go back. It is "analogueish" enough to be acceptable. PCM, even 192/24, still sounds somewhat closed down in comparison.

 

I know and agree that record playback equipment can have VERY different results - that is why I am so "pesky" about the whole analog thing; one may say tons about failings of CD, but basically thing does have frequency response in control enough to be perfectly acceptable and repeatable on about any machine that can play it - only the better/ best and unfortunately usually costliest analog can lay such a claim; no way a budget cart will ever be likely to achieve such a feat. It can be quite musical and enjoyable, but that is not necessary also accurate.

 

PM will be on the way ASAP.

post #438 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grevlin View Post

So I'm thinking about jumping into vinyl and  I'm considering this set:

 

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon to  Rolls Bellari VP 130 tube pre-amp to Headphones or occasionally: AudioEngine A2 speakers

 

 

Any feedback on these choices? Would I run into any problems, or would it be good to go?

 

I've heard both, get the Rega RP1 (or a used P2, if you can find one). The Pro-ject had too much audible motor vibration for me, and the Rega tonearm is a little better.

post #439 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Graham View Post

Starting own thread. Disregard post please.

 

Get the Rega RB250 or RB300 if you can afford it, and mount an Ortofon 2M Red or Blue.

post #440 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipilot227 View Post

 

Get the Rega RB250 or RB300 if you can afford it, and mount an Ortofon 2M Red or Blue.


Edited by Paul Graham - 1/14/13 at 1:06pm
post #441 of 2767

I'm sure quite a few folks would like to see Rega turntable and arm info posted here!

Cheers, C

post #442 of 2767

Well after some more reading etc...

I think the RB300 will be the arm for me and Its in budget as long as I hunt the web.

I will also pop into my local hi fi shop and see if they can order one in.

I might keep an eye on the second hand shops too.

only last month they had a linn model in, the deck looked a shambles but the tonearm looked solid.

As for carts - I think Im going to invest in the 2m first and see how I like the sound of it.

Im also toying with the idea of a Grado cart.

 

Apart from that I'll try different platters and mats etc until I get the sound thats right for me.

post #443 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

I'm sure quite a few folks would like to see Rega turntable and arm info posted here!

Cheers, C

Wish I could help - but my experience does not go beyond RB 300 used on non-Rega decks. A mighty fine arm for the price, but when a decent VTA adjuster is added, price does not look that good anymore.

 

The only time I heard any full Rega really sounding great was on an audio fair - P7.

post #444 of 2767

My first edition VPI JMW arm has on the fly adjustable VTA, as does the new VPI Traveler I have.  For the most part now I'm a set it and forget it type with it being set for a medium thickness record, but sometimes with the really thin records I just have to tinker.  Then drop on a 180 gram album and I have to tinker again.  I can't help myself when the record thickness varies so much.  I'm much better now than I was 15 years ago.  I'd listen for ten seconds and change.  Ten seconds and change.  Start song over and listen all the way through.  Now I realize I don't care that much and just want to enjoy the music. 

 

LAST record preservative isn't cheap!  They say their 2 ounces will do 60 treatments.  So only 30 records?  That seem about right?

post #445 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Graham View Post

Well after some more reading etc...

I think the RB300 will be the arm for me and Its in budget as long as I hunt the web.

I will also pop into my local hi fi shop and see if they can order one in.

I might keep an eye on the second hand shops too.

only last month they had a linn model in, the deck looked a shambles but the tonearm looked solid.

As for carts - I think Im going to invest in the 2m first and see how I like the sound of it.

Im also toying with the idea of a Grado cart.

 

Apart from that I'll try different platters and mats etc until I get the sound thats right for me.

Rega arms go under lots of names - from time to time, an RB 300 equivalent might pop up on ebay that can be pretty reasonably priced in the end.

 

Grado carts are great - but can be finicky in some/most arms. I find Signature 8 models as the ones with best price/performance ratio.

 

A very good information regarding cartridges is here : http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/cartridges/mm-cartridges/ just navigate the site for MC and MI carts.

post #446 of 2767

Actually, RB300s and better don't go by other names. There are versions of the ones with lesser bearing assemplies that Rega makes for others (RB250). Modified Rega arms are almost always worse.

post #447 of 2767

Just to put this info here for others, Grado carts aren't the best match for Rega tables. They're unshielded, and as such they will hum on tables with AC motors (like the Rega). The compliance of the wood-body models is also on the high side for a Rega arm (medium mass, around 12g).

post #448 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

My first edition VPI JMW arm has on the fly adjustable VTA, as does the new VPI Traveler I have.  For the most part now I'm a set it and forget it type with it being set for a medium thickness record, but sometimes with the really thin records I just have to tinker.  Then drop on a 180 gram album and I have to tinker again.  I can't help myself when the record thickness varies so much.  I'm much better now than I was 15 years ago.  I'd listen for ten seconds and change.  Ten seconds and change.  Start song over and listen all the way through.  Now I realize I don't care that much and just want to enjoy the music. 

 

LAST record preservative isn't cheap!  They say their 2 ounces will do 60 treatments.  So only 30 records?  That seem about right?

I share the basic sentiments/feelings regarding both VTA and LAST.

 

All I can say regarding LAST Record Preservative - get it while you still can ... WITHOUT EVER asking why.

post #449 of 2767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

My first edition VPI JMW arm has on the fly adjustable VTA, as does the new VPI Traveler I have.  For the most part now I'm a set it and forget it type with it being set for a medium thickness record, but sometimes with the really thin records I just have to tinker.  Then drop on a 180 gram album and I have to tinker again.  I can't help myself when the record thickness varies so much.  I'm much better now than I was 15 years ago.  I'd listen for ten seconds and change.  Ten seconds and change.  Start song over and listen all the way through.  Now I realize I don't care that much and just want to enjoy the music. 

LAST record preservative isn't cheap!  They say their 2 ounces will do 60 treatments.  So only 30 records?  That seem about right?

I only adjst VTA after I've had a cartrridge for a while.
Last time I changed cartridges I brought my turntable in to a local store and paid someone to set up my turntable fro top to bottom. He has more experience setting up turntables than me!biggrin.gif

I've never counted how many records I put a bottle of LAST preservative on and I only use it for records I really like.
And I don't clean most records very thoroughly.....because I'd rather listen to music than clean every single record I listen to! biggrin.gif
Edited by Chris J - 1/15/13 at 9:18am
post #450 of 2767

Well, I may not have decided on which TT and pre-amp to get - but I did purchase the first records of my life.

 

1. I ordered the Airborne Toxic Event boxed set (All three albums they currently have)

 

2. Found a Peter Gabriel LP "So" at a local record shop that I was checking out. $5 bucks

 

 

I'll be turning 35 in a month...I seem to be doing a lot of things in reverse order. atsmile.gif


Edited by Grevlin - 1/15/13 at 8:51am
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