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post #406 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

 

 

beerchug.gif

More? REALLY want - to KNOW just  - how it ends ?

 

It is a truckload of money ( I will most likely not posess any time soon, let alone decide to spend on ) : http://www.dnaudio.com/Tan.htm

 

There is even a Reference/Statement/Signature/Whatever version, that for an appropriate fee ( a couple of Ks ) adds REMOTE CONTROL for the VTA adjustment on the fly.

 

But it starts much more benign, like Technics SL 1200/1210 - if the VTA adjustment is functioning properly, it can be operated while playing a record and a lone listener might be able to listen to the results on, how appropriately for head-fi, headphones. But you have to be careful not to demage your record or stylus - or worse.

 

Guess I have reached a half way closer to you have guessed by now which extreme : Eminent Technology ET2, a "poor cousin" to the above Sweden arm, which also allows for VTA on the fly ( no  VTA remote for all the money in this world available ) - being the only arm I know of that has VTA adjustment that travels in an arc, not disrupting the lateral geometry as any other, above mentioned arm included, does with adjustment to VTA.

 

Should I ever bring myself to have each and every record in my collection listened to and dialed in for the best sound with THAT record, painstakingly noting the reading off VTA dial on the ET2 ( I WOULD add digital VTA caliper in such case ) , my worst possible nightmare would be then having to change a cartridge and/or stylus - necessitating addendum to the previous setting by noting the required difference established between the carts. Add to this any mat change - things begin to get a bit out of hand about here and one may well end up in an institution that is not exactly high on the desirability list - for meticulously observing ALL the rules regarding analog vinyl.

 

Just how much height difference with a normal 9 inch effective lenght pick up arm at the bearing side IS audible?

 

0.07 mm .

 

That is why you will most likely find digital calipers in close proximity to my turntable(s).

 

There are incomparably more "sane" guys like Rega that tell you as long as your cart points in about the right direction it should all be OK -forget about VTA, azimuth, etc, just play music. Those Regas out there would be FAR better sounding if at least some of the adjustments they deliberately leave out with the excuse of better rigidity etc claims would somehow someday find their way into any new Rega product(s) - which are otherwise very good.

 

Like with everything in life, a sound compromise is in order - but then please do not try to use the latest greatest sharpest stylus tip on something that does not allow for VTA adjustment...and then bitching it sounds like crap while costing the wrong end of $$$.

post #407 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post





beerchug.gif

Well, if 0.07 mm is audible, then VTA adjustments are the road to obsessive compulsive insanity!
post #408 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


Well, if 0.07 mm is audible, then VTA adjustments are the road to obsessive compulsive insanity!

You can call it that way. The problem is exactly the same as with focus in photography - anyone will see it is off and every one will be complaing about it. VTA does have extremely narrow "window" where it is right - even the noise of vinyl will sound much "better" in the sweet spot (range). As insane as that remote for VTA on Air Tangent may seem, it is something anyone familiar with VTA adjustment procedures may well start wishing for at one point or another.

 

I realized decades ago that this 0.07 mm exactenes for EVERY record is - too much, to put it mildly. Now, I adjust it with a very good Ortofon 0002 test record - and leave it there for most records. Ocasionally, if a record that has great musical merit but "sounds VTA off", gets an extra deviation from the average adjustment.

 

I adjust EVERY cartridge with the same degree of precision - regardless of price. Because you would quickly learn well adjusted, not exactly perfectly required, say $50 cartridge will be better than quickly thrown on cart for xK$. 

 

I have thrown in some "outlandish" figures/claims about analog vinyl. NOT to show off, to try to prove what has already been proven long ago, but to make you all aware of these things. Or, to

be blunt : if you know that someone menages to drive about the same kind of car three-four times faster than yourself, perhaps looking into what you can and still are willing to do in order to approach the achievements of that someone is perhaps in order.

 

It was quite a surprise for me to see prices of used/vintage gear for vinyl playback risen drastically lately. Obviously, vinyl is returning stronger than ever in recent memory. Yet the people are still not grasping some of its fundamental issues - like resonance due to compliance of the stylus suspension and effective mass of the cart and arm combined. It is THE Aichile's heel of analog record playback - and NONE of the recent decks, even stratospherically priced, does  take any measaures to reduce its effects on recorded signal.

 

More to come.

post #409 of 2647
Thread Starter 
I work hard to adjust VTA when I first get a new cartridge, but I NEVER adjust it after that. IMHO, that's taking things to a point where it detracts from actually enjoying the music by keeping the focus on the equipment. JMO, of course, but I want people to know its possible to enjoy a lifetime of vinyl playback and not adjust VTA except on initial cartridge setup.
post #410 of 2647

No argument here, Mr Analogsurvivor. You get out of it what you put into it.

 

I have a rather strange "viewpoint, opinion or preference", if you will.

 

I can gladly listen to Jazz, Rock, Blues, etc on CD or Vinyl.

 

But when it comes to Classical, I often have a hard time enjoying listening to a performance on CD.

Frankly, I prefer good vinyl to a good CD.

BTW, I have no problem listening to a well recorded piece from a digital source on vinyl, but bad digital recordings on vinyl or CD..............ugh!

There are plenty of great perfromances in the Telarc catalog that were recorded digitally and released on LP.

 

True confession:

since there is a very large well of classic analog recordings to chose from, I often go back to listening to the pearls from the Golden Age of Analog Classical recording: the Mercurys, the RCAs, Everest, Westminister, etc. etc.  If you look long enough, you can find almost any piece you like in a very good analog recording.

Maybe it is the simplicity of the microphone assignments (i.e 2 or 3 mics) but there is just something very natural and beauitful about the sound of those old recordings.

So maybe I am a bit biased as the re-issues are cherry picked Classical performances on LP, and it is not fair to compare these to average modern CDs. 

 

If you are an LP hater or a vinyl hater or an analog hater or whatever, please do not bother flaming me. I like what I like.biggrin.gif


Edited by Chris J - 1/13/13 at 4:19pm
post #411 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

I work hard to adjust VTA when I first get a new cartridge, but I NEVER adjust it after that. IMHO, that's taking things to a point where it detracts from actually enjoying the music by keeping the focus on the equipment. JMO, of course, but I want people to know its possible to enjoy a lifetime of vinyl playback and not adjust VTA except on initial cartridge setup.

Not true. Any cartridge will change slightly after burn-in period. Some more, some less, in an extremely lucky case when cartridge is spot on  and superb in everything out of the box, it will not change at all. Only had one such case out of 100+ in 35 years.

 

The possible VTA problem after this initial adjustment after burn in is made, are new 180 g and heavier/thicker records - or ultrathin ultralight records from the oil crisis times. Both can be, but not necessary are, different enough to warrant VTA re-adjustment.

 

I could not agree more with the fact that this is annoying and it detracts from actually enjoying the music. That is why manufacturers that do provide for VTA adjustment try hard to make it as user friendly as possible. But I still remember the day I first saw such an "VTA arm base" in the price list of Japan Audio Trading back in early 80s - it was a product of Fidelity Research, costing about the same as my entire setup from cartridge to speakers at the time...It was screrwdriver and/or hexwrench plus cheap plastic calipers I had to satisfy myself with for adjusting VTA then and for considerable time to come after that.

 

Luckily, there are now some reasonably priced but of acceptable quality VTA adjusters for the Rega arms. If any one of head fiers uses one, I would like to hear what are the experiences. Because this would be about as inexpensive as it gets in order to buy new readily available product without having to resort to vintage gear or breaking the bank with costlier new options in order to have user friendly VTA adjustment - that WILL get used from time to time - as your ears will demand it with an odd record once in a while; and one IS likely to supress such a wish because of the intrusion/detraction/ hassle of screwdriver/hexwrench method right in the middle of the listening session. A qiuck adjustment on the lever of the VTA adjuster is IMO tolerable enough. 

post #412 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

No argument here, Mr Analogsurvivor. You get out of it what you put into it.

 

I have a rather strange "viewpoint, opinion or preference", if you will.

 

I can gladly listen to Jazz, Rock, Blues, etc on CD or Vinyl.

 

But when it comes to Classical, I often have a hard time enjoying listening to a performance on CD.

Frankly, I prefer good vinyl to a good CD.

BTW, I have no problem listening to a well recorded piece from a digital source on vinyl, but bad digital recordings on vinyl or CD..............ugh!

There are plenty of great perfromances in the Telarc catalog that were recorded digitally and released on LP.

 

True confession:

since there is a very large well of classic analog recordings to chose from, I often go back to listening to the pearls from the Golden Age of Analog Classical recording: the Mercurys, the RCAs, Everest, Westminister, etc. etc.  If you look long enough, you can find almost any piece you like in a very good analog recording.

Maybe it is the simplicity of the microphone assignments (i.e 2 or 3 mics) but there is just something very natural and beauitful about the sound of those old recordings.

So maybe I am a bit biased as the re-issues are cherry picked Classical performances on LP, and it is not fair to compare these to average modern CDs. 

 

If you are an LP hater or a vinyl hater or an analog hater or whatever, please do not bother flaming me. I like what I like.biggrin.gif

No, no, no ! I LIKE vinyl, I LIKE simple microphone setups, I entirely agree with you !

 

True confession: I have measured/observed on an oscilloscope practically anything one could possibly use for vinyl playback, with a notable exception of Ikeda cantileverless pneumatic suspension MCs. No manufacturer of phono reproducing equipment would feel comfortable with publishing the full results of the entire battery of tests with test records that once upon a time were readily commercially available. Let's say that I made a compilation of best test records that is more extensive than anything that ever appeared in print on the subject  - as vinyl predates internet the information online is scarce and in most cases limited to the records that are still commercially available.

 

Sad fact - vinyl can sound appreciably better than it is generally known now. But as you remove playback flaws, one by one, you will arrive to the point that this equipment will reveal flaws in our cherished Deccas, Mercurys, Everests, Westminsters ...they are good, they certainly sound better than most current produced CDs, but perfect they are - NOT. Some of these are extremely well camouflaged limits of the equipment they were made with, always in the best spirit of preserving the musical message, a feat the great recording enginners of the past are justly famous for. Not perfect, still entirely enjoyable - something that can be all too rarily said regarding current recordings. 

 

Today it should be possible to make a new generation of analog vinyl - one that would be almost free from tracing distortions, tracking distortions, frequency response anomalies that are all VERY unpredictable at present and can lead to very inconsistent sound quality from one record player to another. A sort of "analog CD" in terms of sound quality consistency and user friendliness, but with analog resolution, if you will.

 

I guess you would not mind that. Playing some good new simple but well miked recordings.

post #413 of 2647

So if you had adjusted the VTA, what happens to records that had minor or major warps? Will the warped part that is higher than the rest sound bad?

 

I'm curious because my tonearm has a VTA adjustment. Other than that, this is a very basic manual tonearm. Should I ever change carts, I'm going to need to readjust the VTA?

post #414 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by penmarker View Post

So if you had adjusted the VTA, what happens to records that had minor or major warps? Will the warped part that is higher than the rest sound bad?

 

I'm curious because my tonearm has a VTA adjustment. Other than that, this is a very basic manual tonearm. Should I ever change carts, I'm going to need to readjust the VTA?

Record SHOULD be flat - none are in real life. There are ways to rectify that, in approximately ascending order of price and performance: from record weights and clamps that go on the label area, to record rim weights that go on the very outer rim of the record , to vacuum suction disc stabilizers either sold separately or integrated in turntable design - to the special electric record flattener from Japan, which is essentially a heater that sandwiches a LP between two FLAT surfaces and applies the heat in just the right amount for just the right time in order to iron out the warps and wrinkles in your vinyl.

 

Yes, when you change even the stylus for the same type ( after original is worn out or demaged ), you should check for VTA and adjust for any differences. Really precise manufactured styli MIGHT stand a chance no readjustment will be necessary, but it happens a lot less than it should in practice. It is extremely unlikely a change of cartridge for another type/make will not result in requirement to readjust VTA.

post #415 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

No, no, no ! I LIKE vinyl, I LIKE simple microphone setups, I entirely agree with you !

True confession: I have measured/observed on an oscilloscope practically anything one could possibly use for vinyl playback, with a notable exception of Ikeda cantileverless pneumatic suspension MCs. No manufacturer of phono reproducing equipment would feel comfortable with publishing the full results of the entire battery of tests with test records that once upon a time were readily commercially available. Let's say that I made a compilation of best test records that is more extensive than anything that ever appeared in print on the subject  - as vinyl predates internet the information online is scarce and in most cases limited to the records that are still commercially available.

Sad fact - vinyl can sound appreciably better than it is generally known now. But as you remove playback flaws, one by one, you will arrive to the point that this equipment will reveal flaws in our cherished Deccas, Mercurys, Everests, Westminsters ...they are good, they certainly sound better than most current produced CDs, but perfect they are - NOT. Some of these are extremely well camouflaged limits of the equipment they were made with, always in the best spirit of preserving the musical message, a feat the great recording enginners of the past are justly famous for. Not perfect, still entirely enjoyable - something that can be all too rarily said regarding current recordings. 

Today it should be possible to make a new generation of analog vinyl - one that would be almost free from tracing distortions, tracking distortions, frequency response anomalies that are all VERY unpredictable at present and can lead to very inconsistent sound quality from one record player to another. A sort of "analog CD" in terms of sound quality consistency and user friendliness, but with analog resolution, if you will.

I guess you would not mind that. Playing some good new simple but well miked recordings.

My last sentence was aimed at the Digital Propellerheads and Object-to-it-all-ists, not you!
The guys who know what is best for me better than I do! rolleyes.gif
wink.gif

BTW, sounds like you are describing some of the finest Reference Recordings from Keith Johnson?
post #416 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

More? REALLY want - to KNOW just  - how it ends ?

 

It is a truckload of money ( I will most likely not posess any time soon, let alone decide to spend on ) : http://www.dnaudio.com/Tan.htm

 

There is even a Reference/Statement/Signature/Whatever version, that for an appropriate fee ( a couple of Ks ) adds REMOTE CONTROL for the VTA adjustment on the fly.

 

But it starts much more benign, like Technics SL 1200/1210 - if the VTA adjustment is functioning properly, it can be operated while playing a record and a lone listener might be able to listen to the results on, how appropriately for head-fi, headphones. But you have to be careful not to demage your record or stylus - or worse.

 

Guess I have reached a half way closer to you have guessed by now which extreme : Eminent Technology ET2, a "poor cousin" to the above Sweden arm, which also allows for VTA on the fly ( no  VTA remote for all the money in this world available ) - being the only arm I know of that has VTA adjustment that travels in an arc, not disrupting the lateral geometry as any other, above mentioned arm included, does with adjustment to VTA.

 

Should I ever bring myself to have each and every record in my collection listened to and dialed in for the best sound with THAT record, painstakingly noting the reading off VTA dial on the ET2 ( I WOULD add digital VTA caliper in such case ) , my worst possible nightmare would be then having to change a cartridge and/or stylus - necessitating addendum to the previous setting by noting the required difference established between the carts. Add to this any mat change - things begin to get a bit out of hand about here and one may well end up in an institution that is not exactly high on the desirability list - for meticulously observing ALL the rules regarding analog vinyl.

 

Just how much height difference with a normal 9 inch effective lenght pick up arm at the bearing side IS audible?

 

0.07 mm .

 

That is why you will most likely find digital calipers in close proximity to my turntable(s).

 

There are incomparably more "sane" guys like Rega that tell you as long as your cart points in about the right direction it should all be OK -forget about VTA, azimuth, etc, just play music. Those Regas out there would be FAR better sounding if at least some of the adjustments they deliberately leave out with the excuse of better rigidity etc claims would somehow someday find their way into any new Rega product(s) - which are otherwise very good.

 

Like with everything in life, a sound compromise is in order - but then please do not try to use the latest greatest sharpest stylus tip on something that does not allow for VTA adjustment...and then bitching it sounds like crap while costing the wrong end of $$$.

Rega does have spacers for the arms that generally get you within about 1mm and their own cartridges are setup for correct VTA. 2mm spacer + a DV cartridge (sharp stylus) works quite well.bigsmile_face.gif

post #417 of 2647

Nothing wrong with the analog tape, mics or cutters from the 60s. I also haven't found modern vinyl to be quieter. What can be done vs what is commonly getting done (analog or digital) are 2 very different issues. I agree most haven't heard what good vinyl reproduction is but I disagree it gets more problematic with better associated kit. Quite the opposite and still surprising for a rattling rock in a trough.


Edited by goodvibes - 1/14/13 at 5:20am
post #418 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

I work hard to adjust VTA when I first get a new cartridge, but I NEVER adjust it after that. IMHO, that's taking things to a point where it detracts from actually enjoying the music by keeping the focus on the equipment. JMO, of course, but I want people to know its possible to enjoy a lifetime of vinyl playback and not adjust VTA except on initial cartridge setup.

This and I suspect it may have as much to do with aligning the motor as the cartridge rake.


Edited by goodvibes - 1/14/13 at 5:19am
post #419 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


My last sentence was aimed at the Digital Propellerheads and Object-to-it-all-ists, not you!
The guys who know what is best for me better than I do! rolleyes.gif
wink.gif

BTW, sounds like you are describing some of the finest Reference Recordings from Keith Johnson?

Have to "brainmark" that Digital Propellerheads - GOOD one !

 

Among others - RR and Keith Johnson certainly are in the first echelons when it comes to quality in recording. Analog stretched to the absolute max -

both in good - and bad. I respect his decision not to use any tape noise reduction in the signal path, yet noise can then be problem. His recent pure digital recordings are also cream of the crop. Just play RR HDCD Sampler (or respective recordings) and you should understand. SACDs should be much better still than CD, where analog vinyl has the upper hand over CD if the original recording wasmore  analogue. Wish only RR had acess to more top ranked artists - but this is an altogether different story.

 

Telarc had VERY interesting classical catalog (lots of premier recordings, not available anywhere else ) - and yet there were rumors of its demise. Glad to see their website up and running ...

post #420 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

Rega does have spacers for the arms that generally get you within about 1mm and their own cartridges are setup for correct VTA. 2mm spacer + a DV cartridge (sharp stylus) works quite well.bigsmile_face.gif

Better something than nothing. I can not atest to the corectness or consistency of Rega carts regarding VTA - too low experience to show anything like statistically valid verdict on that.

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