TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!
Dec 20, 2014 at 10:06 AM Post #2,866 of 3,585
  The BEOGRAM turntable models with the tangential arms look interesting a quick search doesn't revel much info anyone using one is there a preferred model of the series?

It is a can of worms even likes of myself do not dare to come close. In principle LOTS of going for them - I did comment on B&O having one of the best direct drive systems in existence - but the platters they used and their assumption  that super non damped ultra light alu platter is going to perfectly damp the resonances created in the record by the tracking with a stylus borders on the best approximation of wishful thinking imaginable.
 
It is a HIIGHLY exclusive system - accepting in its stock form nothing but B & O cartridges. These were among the best available - EVER - but today are ever more rare and ever more expensive. It is true that Soundsmith is doing contemporary version of these carts ( B & O did incredibly stupid thing - they have destroyed all the tools and blueprints & whatever cartridge related during the CD craze ...) - but these are more adapted to the modern trend more heavy effective mass arms, not the lightest possible B&O linear tracking arms. And they get pretty $ for a decent quality - which is about to say that they mimic the old B&Os in this regard. And they are NOT the sonic equal of the originals; that is not to say they are worse, just different.
 
There do exist mods for the arm to accept normal 1/2" mount cartridges, if you prefer to go that route.
 
Yes, there is a preferred model - anything with the latest direct drive. It was basically the same, differing in cosmetics/equalling the styling of the entire Beowhatever Series - and some differences whether it did or did not include phono preamp again to be compatible with respective Series. Please consult Beogram related forums - quite a lot to chew trough.  
 
It will also have to be recaped - replacement of capacitors - for proper and reliable operation; it is 30 or so years old by now.
 
No idea how it is with feedback, etc, or anything else from the practical point of using one - never had the opportunity to hear one for any appreciable amount of time in non B&O system - and even that was decades ago.
 
I did not want to scare you off - just warn that it is not a plug and play/fire & forget  solution as it would like to present itself. For starters: where on earth are you going to get a platter mat of the EXACT thichkness to replace those rings or ribs (according to the model of the TT ) - other than building it yourself or having it custom made ?
As far as I know, B&O does not have provision for adjustment of VTA - but I may be wrong on this.
 
If you stumble upon any reasonably priced B&O fitted with a lightly used MMC 2 - or even better, MMC1 cartridge - it is worth buying for the cart alone. Look up the prices on ebay - and that should give you some idea what that "reasonably priced" may mean in concrete $. Whether it is within one's budget, is another matter.
 
The best way to find out is by having a demo of a properly functioning one - and then deciding if it is worth the trouble. If you do go for it, NEVER forget to get a replacement cartridge, preferably original B & O - while you STILL CAN. They are not going to become cheaper ...
 
Dec 20, 2014 at 10:26 AM Post #2,868 of 3,585
 
Thanks AS for your detailed reply I was hoping you might have some words of wisdom for me to digest.

No problem - with all the money and time in the world at my disposal, I would be hunting one down as we speak...
It also depends whether you can/are willing to rehaul it yourself or you will have to pay others to do it  - in the end , it all boils down to money.
 
One thing is for sure, B&O will hardly ever be best bang for the buck - but it can be (quite close to ) the best.
 
Good luck !
 
Dec 27, 2014 at 3:49 PM Post #2,870 of 3,585
What are you all using for a grounding cable between your turntable and phono stage?  Mine seems to be picking up a lot of interference. 


My turntable had a grounding cable onboard.

You could probably use a normal copper wire.
 
Dec 27, 2014 at 7:35 PM Post #2,872 of 3,585
 
I had a hunk of copper power cord.  It's just picky about placement since I moved my rig around.  

It obviously is not a star ground setup ( 90+% aren't ). Try to create as little of "loop" with the earth wire; sometimes a replacement by heavier gauge of wire helps, but this is case to case different. The only hum/interference free grounding is star grounding without ANY ground loops - difficult in practice.
 
Dec 27, 2014 at 9:00 PM Post #2,873 of 3,585
how often should I get my needle thingy rebuilt/retipped?
sorry probably not the right terminology.
 
currently running a sumiko blackbird on a project 9.1 table it's a little over a year old.  I go through stints where it gets played a lot and then some where it goes a month or two without being played.  I think getting it rebuilt is barely cheaper than buying a new one.  
 
Dec 28, 2014 at 5:11 AM Post #2,876 of 3,585
   
500 hours

This is a normal safe limit. For any stylus tip profile except Micro Ridge and its name variants - Micro Line, Micro Reach, Super Analogue Stylus SAS, maybe more...
 
This design can be used for approx 1000 hours before any "spreading/teardrop" typical of other styli can occur - and is still safe for the records. The most alarming thing and the point you should most definitely stop using the stylus is when you invariably get lots of whitish "dust" accumulated on the diamond tip, even with freshly vacuum or sonic cleaned record; that IS YOUR VINYL, to be exact the high frequency detail above the wavelength your by now too used stylus no longer can trace and the only way it can come trough is by clipping those fine high frequency detail. Needless to say, it represents the irreparable damage.
 
Please note that Jico does state the increase of distortion above certain limit even for its SAS stylus quoted as 500 hours; it is even more record friendly/staying on the safe side recommendation. Remember, a single rare record can exceed the cost of stylus replacement/retipping - and is destroyed by a single play with worn stylus.
 
Stylus wear is difficult to accurately present using optical equipment available to the typical amateur analog user. The only truly correct way that does not require any "interpretation" is by Scanning Electron Microscope - SEM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_electron_microscope. So far, I know of only Ortofon including a SEM photo for the stylus of the then new MC 3000 - and even those were NOT being taken from an angle that truly does give decisive "still OK/past safe" information. In case you "lacked" access to SEM, the only way to check for wear was sending the cart to Ortofon - no wonder this practice of including the SEM photo of your particular sample did not last long - for obvious practical reasons.
The best info regarding stylus wear on net without the use of SEM is this : http://www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0300.htm
 
Depending on the depth of your pocket one should consider buying a new cartridge. There is a difference if retipping of say $5K  cartridge costs a couple hundred $ - or 2/3rds of the cost of a new unit - or even more. This depends on the method the diamond stylus is attached to the cantilever - if it is simply glued to the end of the cantilever, this can be (but not necessary is in practice...) relatively inexpensive; the other extreme are styli/cantilevers made out of a single piece of diamond - here absolutely nothing of the moving assembly can be reused, but the same goes for practically any other stylus that is attached to the cantilever trough a precisely cut usually rectangular hole - meaning the entire moving assembly, including the coils, has to be replaced - if the performance of the original is to be maintained.
 
Please note that although retippers ( Soundsmith, Esco, Axel ) can in most cases replace only the diamond stylus -and/or cantilever - even on stylus assemblies with cantilevers with a hole type mounting, this will no longer have the performance of the original. Not necessary worse - but most definitely different than the original. It is exactly the same situation as when deciding whether to use original parts for your car - or by aftermarket producers. When the original manufacturer is no longer around, it is the only choice.
 
So thinking twice before the purchase of the new cartridge doe$ make $en$e - you will be getting much more out of your records with say Audio Technica 440 MLa replaced on regular intervals than say a Koetsu you are "forced" to use beyond its capabilities. And no, the records you have damaged with a worn out stylus will NOT magically bounce back once funds for the new stylus will be available ...
 
Dec 28, 2014 at 1:47 PM Post #2,877 of 3,585
Don't forget, change your oil every 3000 miles!  
ph34r.gif

 
I better start logging my miles, I mean hours I put on my cart.
 
Dec 31, 2014 at 8:51 PM Post #2,878 of 3,585
Hi just a quick question about my new TT.  I just got a Scout Jr. a couple of weeks ago, and had them install a 2M Blue instead of the usual Red.  I noticed right away it had a shiny thing on the cantilever, above the needle.  I could see it as I cleaned the needle.  I just assumed it was part of the cantilever.  But today I was cleaning extra good and the shiny thing came off.  I now assume it was a piece of diamond that somehow found it's way onto my cantilever.  (I am hoping it is not from my needle)  But my question is how do I make sure the cantilever is now clean?  The top of it?  I don't want to use the brush up there, for fear of dislodging the whole thing.  Any thoughts?  Thanks in advance.
 
Dec 31, 2014 at 9:17 PM Post #2,879 of 3,585
If you have a very soft stylus brush you can brush very gently and carefully from back to front along the length of the stylus.

It's extremely unlikely that "a piece of diamond" was on the cantilever. The diamond stylus on a phon cartridge is tiny.
 
Jan 1, 2015 at 4:45 AM Post #2,880 of 3,585
  Hi just a quick question about my new TT.  I just got a Scout Jr. a couple of weeks ago, and had them install a 2M Blue instead of the usual Red.  I noticed right away it had a shiny thing on the cantilever, above the needle.  I could see it as I cleaned the needle.  I just assumed it was part of the cantilever.  But today I was cleaning extra good and the shiny thing came off.  I now assume it was a piece of diamond that somehow found it's way onto my cantilever.  (I am hoping it is not from my needle)  But my question is how do I make sure the cantilever is now clean?  The top of it?  I don't want to use the brush up there, for fear of dislodging the whole thing.  Any thoughts?  Thanks in advance.

Are you perhaps referring to the various colour "markings" most of the metal cantilevers have ? Here in white and light blue, on the UNDERside of the cantilever, the same side as the stylus, but most metal cantilevers have it on the UPPERside - and colurs can also be very shiny.
 

 
Those markings are there for a reason - most likely is to provide some damping of the resonances in metal tube of the cantilever, arrived at by trial and error method; once the best spot and "colour" is found that provides the best damping with the least amount of mass added, it is applied in the same way to the production cantilevers. Only the cheapest styli usually feature no such markings (one operation step less > lower price possible ).  I can remember Frank Van Alstine using a precisely applied tiny amount of "silicone" just above the stylus mounting in his modified Grado cartridges - to even more pronounced effect. And he used such "markings" applied to the entire upper surface of the cantilever (where it was least likely to be removed by cleaning etc) - noting expressively NOT to remove it.
 

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