Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE! - Page 146

post #2176 of 2647
Thread Starter 

I went without any working turntable from about 1992-1999.  When i decided I needed to start playing my records again, I bought a Pro-Ject TT and whatever cartridge it came with - about $350.  It was OK, better than nothing, but didn't really excite me, honestly.  I then upgraded it to a rig I paid $1,500 for - Denon DP-59L, Benz ACE, and Monolithic Audio phono pre.  I would say that this upgrade was HUGE - maybe 200% better.  No kidding.

 

Then about 10 years later, I upgraded to a VPI Scoutmaster, Benz LP-S, and EAR 834P phono pre.  I paid @$7K for this.  And I would say it was about 15-20% better than the Denon/ACE rig.

 

I bet to get 10% more than what I have now, I would have to spend $20-25K.  And I ain't doing that.

 

Diminishing returns exist big time in all of audio.  But the value of money is quite different for everyone, of course.

post #2177 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

I went without any working turntable from about 1992-1999.  When i decided I needed to start playing my records again, I bought a Pro-Ject TT and whatever cartridge it came with - about $350.  It was OK, better than nothing, but didn't really excite me, honestly.  I then upgraded it to a rig I paid $1,500 for - Denon DP-59L, Benz ACE, and Monolithic Audio phono pre.  I would say that this upgrade was HUGE - maybe 200% better.  No kidding.

Then about 10 years later, I upgraded to a VPI Scoutmaster, Benz LP-S, and EAR 834P phono pre.  I paid @$7K for this.  And I would say it was about 15-20% better than the Denon/ACE rig.

I bet to get 10% more than what I have now, I would have to spend $20-25K.  And I ain't doing that.

Diminishing returns exist big time in all of audio.  But the value of money is quite different for everyone, of course.

Agree 100%. I'd just like to add that money isn't the only differentiating factor in acceptance, but also an expectation of value. That word, value, hinges on one's individual priority structure, as you implied.

FWIW, my current phono rig is worth maybe $5K. I've had more elaborate setups, and I run this, because it suits my needs. Those needs are driven by three factors: sound quality, ergonomics, and the simple fact that over time I (personally) turned into a leveler regrading my own expectations:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
post #2178 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUMAY408 View Post
 

I saw a nice TT setup this AM on CBS Morning News, of all the strange places, a $50,000 Bergman Audio TT.

 

The range of prices on TT's scale to $300,000

 

Can anyone give some type of setup cost vs. accuracy

 

ex. $1,000 = 80% efficiency

 

I'm still not sure whether a $6,000 TT is 3X better than a $2,000 setup

 

HP's seem so much more straight forward to scale 

 

That is pure materialism, music has nothing to do with it at that point.

post #2179 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaffer View Post


and the simple fact that over time I (personally) turned into a leveler 

 

 

Feels good, doesn't it?

post #2180 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

 

That is pure materialism, music has nothing to do with it at that point.


I have to agree...honestly, once you get over 5k to 6k (Such as a VPI Classic III), you are showing your cash. The percentage of increase in sound from a 5k table to a 15k table MIGHT be 1%..after that ...nada...Its like having a solid gold razor or jewel encased cel phone. Did they work better ? No...just bling.

 

I know some would disagree but its a matter of physics and science. You can only extract what is there. So given that most audiophile carts have frequency response below and above human hearing, 1/2 DB channel balance...and dead inert tables, you are then at the mercy of the mastering. You cant be $290,000 better. Just doesn't happen

post #2181 of 2647

$5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)


Edited by BLACKENEDPLAGUE - 1/27/14 at 4:33pm
post #2182 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

$5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)

I was good right up to the Klipsch Heresy's.

post #2183 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post
 

I was good right up to the Klipsch Heresy's.


Too funny...

 

I have approx. $7500 invested in my system - $3000 of that is dedicated to vinyl (table, cart, phono stage, cables, custom cover). To be honest, there is really nothing I want to change out...if I did, it would be a major investment in new speakers which to me are the hardest of all to get just right..

 

As to Klipsch...not a fan either....LOL...That's why we have choices...:wink_face:

post #2184 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 


I have to agree...honestly, once you get over 5k to 6k (Such as a VPI Classic III), you are showing your cash. The percentage of increase in sound from a 5k table to a 15k table MIGHT be 1%..after that ...nada...Its like having a solid gold razor or jewel encased cel phone. Did they work better ? No...just bling.

 

I know some would disagree but its a matter of physics and science. You can only extract what is there. So given that most audiophile carts have frequency response below and above human hearing, 1/2 DB channel balance...and dead inert tables, you are then at the mercy of the mastering. You cant be $290,000 better. Just doesn't happen

It is not only money. If the 300K table is just a smidge worse adjusted than say a 5 K table, the better adjusted 5K table wins - ALWAYS. Azimuth is the most critical - has to be adjusted perfectly - to below 1/3rd of a degree for best results. This is made easier today using Fosgometer or Clearaudio "device" or Feickert - but can also be done using an oscilloscope. 

 

If you had any idea how big are "errors" in recording and mastering, you would stop worrying about half a dB here or there - or cables ( the only exception the most sensitive one, from the tonearm to the phono preamp - to make matters worse, exactly TOTALLY opposite requirements for MM than MC - today almost everything available is MC friendly and MM hostile ..) .

 

I used to have 5 tonearms on the same TT, capable of simultaneous playback. Unless the carts had severe limitations in trackability and/or distortion, the main factor in SQ is frequency response. That 1/2 dB (and quite some more) is correctable by a QUALITY equalizer - before anyone starts waving with a cross and hawthorn to fend off this "vampire", a good demo of cart + EQ is required; I prefer cart with requency response that can be corrected using good EQ and superb tracking/distortion over one with flat response and even slight limitations in trackiability/distortion. Some Grados are positively divine properly EQed... 

 

I started to record because very quickly during my development of TTs it became clear that most, even the best recordings on vinyl are hopelessly compressed, limited in bass, etc, etc - some of this is unfortunately really limited by what can be put on disc, quite some totally unnecessary, much also have stamp of the original equipment they were recorded with - etc. There were/are very few vinyls that have (almost) no limitations - most notable are perhaps direct to disks from Miller & Kreisel. No wonder Ken Kreisel, who recorded them, used Grado's best cart at the time, the Signature 2 for monitoring the pressings - those very carts were on sale on ebay about 1 year ago. Although I never had any of those Signatures, I do have a few better Grado styli from that era - and after a good disk is heard

without the usual compression impaired by most of MCs of present ( most are uncapable of +18 dB @ 300 Hz ), returning to +15 dB @ 300 Hz or less cart is hard indeed. Present day Grados do not have this capability, for the most part at least. The best Grados are SUPERB trackers - +18dB@300 Hz equals approx amplitude of 90 micrometers - and best Grados exceed 100 micrometer mark, some even 110; dynamics literally explode, there is no breakup of sound even in the largest climaxes in operas; Joe Grado was a quite active opera singer ... - and it shows.

 

No matter how flat it is; if it can not convey the full dynamics/bass, it will sound constricted ... - never happens in live music.

post #2185 of 2647

AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL

 

And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL

post #2186 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 

AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL

 

And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL

The only unamplified live music is classical, solo, chamber, symphonic and opera.  Otherwise, you're mostly listening to a PA.  It's fun to see performers make music but most of the time you're at the mercy of the electronics they're playing through.  

post #2187 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post
 

The only unamplified live music is classical, solo, chamber, symphonic and opera.  Otherwise, you're mostly listening to a PA.  It's fun to see performers make music but most of the time you're at the mercy of the electronics they're playing through.  

Mostly true - but one of the best "sounds" I heard - EVER - was jazz; Nat Adderly Quartet, as guest in the show called Izza odra ( Backstage ), run for a number of years by Brane Rončel (pronounced close to Ronchel), in the big studio 1 of TV Slovenija. Best PA in the world - NONE. With the quartet no more than 2 metres from my seat.

It was the last time I succumbed to the thrill & excitement after the concert by buying a CD - yUUUCKKK !!!

 

Here one of the few Izza odra to survive on youtube : 

post #2188 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 

AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL

 

And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL

Arcorob, we are not that different - let's say I am "a couple of full moons" older and therefore more experienced. You are in exactly the age range where people are prone to believe they have the whole knowledge covered -  I used to be much the same LOL. 

 

After "a few more full moons "... - main thing: we both love music, we would not be fiddlin' with TTs otherwise !

post #2189 of 2647

I started out with a Pioneer PL-15 belt driven automatic with a $20 upgraded Audio Technica cartridge circa late 70's.

 

It may not have been high end, but it still sounded better than any CD I heard at that time.  Forced to give up vinyl because artists were releasing only CD's, I'm glad to return to what I loved.

 

The previous discussion about TT cost/value was very helpful.  


Edited by RUMAY408 - 1/27/14 at 7:02pm
post #2190 of 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

$5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)

Klipsch Heresy is aptly named - it is exactly that.

 

I am not a fan of Klipsch, although K-Horns and to a lesser degree La Scala give lease of real dynamics so sadly lacking in most otherwise great/better "normal" speakers.

 

Still, with music that does not rely too heavily on bass, Heresy can sound amazing at times - not exactly merrying kind, but always worth turning around ...

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Dedicated Source Components
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!