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post #2116 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

12 V 4,5 Ah sealed lead battery + smart charger for it ... - no need for super low output impedance/resistance battery, better to get two; one in use, other one charging.

 

If you are electronically able, you could perhaps design your own charger; ideally it should stop powering the TT if voltage drops too low, shoulf be on charging/trickle charge whenever TT not in use. As noted before, fully charged  4.5Ah battery would last approx 5 hours.


oh you meant wireless?

 

yes this will most likely work better.

 

i'll get a battery pack from eBay.

post #2117 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 

Bad analogsurvivor BAD :deadhorse:

 

Half of what you said is true and half is so wrong you need to be on the horse end of the stick.

 

For a cheap entry level cart, yes, phono stage is not going to make angels sing and brass knobs shine brighter. But to say phono stage is overrated ? Why do you keep posting opinions like fact ?

 

One you get away from entry level, the phono stage is vitally important. Many newer receivers (and a lot of older) add phono to their systems as an afterthought. They are barely tolerable. Take that same system, a decent cart (MM, MI or MC) and add an outboard phono stage and quality changes.

 

I really don't want to go into this. You seem like a smart guy with a lot of buzz words and background knowledge but many times you post crap and call it steak sandwich.

 

Hope about the next time you are going to post these diatribe of mythical knowledge, you post some links to verifiable facts. I am POSITIVE that Michael Fremer would disagree with you on the phone stage. And then to say the cheapest phono stage will best even the costliest cartridge ? NOT.

 

Many phono stages don't do carts justice. THAT is the problem. The choke the life out of say, MC carts if they have standard 100ohm loads. Who the hell said 100ohms is the BE ALL END ALL .

 

Man...you make me want to take a pill....I love ya guy but stop being the guru and start being FACTUAL.

To be specific; I wanted to point out that cartridge loading IS more important than phono preamp per se. I do not like preamps with fixed imput impedance - because there are any number of audiophiles that will rather die than change or have changed a single resistor or capacitor in their equipment, phono preamps included. They prefer changing their equipment until they finally manage to get together units that do work together as supposed  as a system.

 

Problem with resistive termination of MCs, although audible and therefore problematic, is NOTHING compared to what is in present equipment regarding capacitance that adverselly affects MM cartridges. Properly terminated quality MM has much going for it, if really done well, can compete with the very best regardless of operating principle. Terminate it electrically incorrectly and low cost MCs step into the picture ...Just one sample that is VERY widespread; last batch(es) of Technics SL1210 MK ?

have their phono cable changed; to no less than approx 450 pF ! In other words, useless for the vast majority of MM carts, Technics' own included. You can have zero input capacitance in phono preamp, and it would still not help - THAT cable is no go with MMs, period. 

 

Cable capacitance is unfortunately something that will suffer first anything cable related is changed. For example, one vendor I usually buy my Tasker C112 ( super "expensive" - slightly below 2 EUR/metre ... - but although not stellar, IS good ) cable from ran out of stock and I needed that 1 meter of cable - right there and then. I bought C112 from another manufacturer - only to find out it has almost three times the capacitance of C112 from Tasker. Yeah, its only saving grace, it was 30% cheaper than Tasker ...

 

Please go to the http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/ for some recent(ish) objective measurements of phono gear; any phono preamp is likely to exceed the performance of even the best carts. Linearity of frequency response and distortion, particularly at high(er) level of record modulation, will be orders of magnitude worse than any electronics. Ever LISTENED to the signals from the test records as reproduced by turntables ? With headphones, to ever increasing level of modulation ? In linear, not RIAA equalized mode, where each and every failing is ruthlessly exposed ? Seen that on an oscilloscope ? No electronics, short of total overload, can put out so much crap. And yes, "perfect" cartridges do exist - they at least are capable of tracking what is on the record without falling to bits and pieces - but they still are no match for electronics.

 

Which is not to say there are no gains in getting as good phono as it gets.

 

Phono is VERY neglected in recen(ish) receivers etc and an outboard unit will certainly improve upon the performance of such afterthoughts. Many vintage gear offers extremely well done phonos; in those days, phono was king and line level "afterthought"; many better preamps, integrateds and receivers had the possibility to bypass the line section altogether, for the best possible sonics. Those buttons were labeled Tone Defeat , Direct, etc - essentially you could choose between an active or passive line level stage at the push of the button. And those vintage phonos are perfectly capable of teaching today outboard units a trick or two... - BUT it has to be said that equipment capable of such performance was perhaps more expensive back in the day than the current crop. Your $ or Euro or whatever can buy you today perhaps more than back then - but in olden days it was not almost exclusive bang for the buck, some did pursue quality, particularly the Japanese, price be damned ...

post #2118 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH23 View Post
 


oh you meant wireless?

 

yes this will most likely work better.

 

i'll get a battery pack from eBay.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/12V-10Ah-Blei-AGM-Bleiakku-Bleigel-Akkumulator-Batterie-PEG-PEREGO-Scooter-EBike-/120986345160?pt=DE_Allesf%C3%BCrsKind_Spielzeug_Kinderfah

 

It depends on your location, these batteries are HEAVY and shipping does affect the final price. Getting it locally might be your best bet. Vendors usually also carry suitable chargers - but recently Lidl did have nice one for below 20 EUR.

 

If you have enough NiMH AA cells and charger , you could also try this :  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Batteriehalter-10x-AA-Mignon-Batteriefach-offen/370499177782?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D134%26meid%3D42986

 and the usual 9V clip connector plus cable plus connector that fits the female receptacle on SL 7.

 

This AA approach would work approx 2-3 hours.


Edited by analogsurviver - 1/22/14 at 7:15am
post #2119 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

Something like this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/12V-10Ah-Blei-AGM-Bleiakku-Bleigel-Akkumulator-Batterie-PEG-PEREGO-Scooter-EBike-/120986345160?pt=DE_Allesf%C3%BCrsKind_Spielzeug_Kinderfah

 

It depends on your location, these batteries are HEAVY and shipping does affect the final price. Getting it locally might be your best bet. Vendors usually also carry suitable chargers - but recently Lidl did have nice one for below 20 EUR.

 

If you have enough NiMH AA cells and charger , you could also try this :  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Batteriehalter-10x-AA-Mignon-Batteriefach-offen/370499177782?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D134%26meid%3D42986

 and the usual 9V clip connector plus cable plus connector that fits the female receptacle on SL 7.

 

This AA approach would work approx 2-3 hours.

 

we have LIDL over here, but i don't remember seeing any battery there, do you have a link to this?

 

otherwise it would be something like the first link.

 

--------

 

 

also wondering if the Grado headphone amp can be powered by a single 18v battery instead of 2 9v batteries, does anybody know this?

post #2120 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH23 View Post
 

 

we have LIDL over here, but i don't remember seeing any battery there, do you have a link to this?

 

otherwise it would be something like the first link.

 

--------

 

 

also wondering if the Grado headphone amp can be powered by a single 18v battery instead of 2 9v batteries, does anybody know this?

No batteries, charger for lead batteries only . Just try to search on your local LIDL ( or HOFER ) sites; they usually offer such items in actions, limited supply, but sometimes there are leftovers - or they come again after a few months. Here the video in Slovenian language ( here  it was on sale 2-3months ago) - perhaps you can track it down at your end :

 

http://www.lidl.si/cps/rde/SID-30EEB9CE-D5EAB480/www_lidl_si/hs.xsl/videooizdelku.htm

 

As for the battery itself; try to get as many Ah as possible given the money. Driving the turntable, constant draw of approx 800 maA is very easy application, no surges, no freezing temperatures etc as in a car - so some uber super duper battery is not required.

 

I am not familiar with Grado headphone amp or irs schematics, so I can not comment. But you can try to look if "central tap" is grounded and it is in fact +- 9 V DC supply and not single ended 18 V DC; if it is grounded +- 9 V, than you can not use a single 18 V battery. Also, sealed lead batteries usually come in multiples of 6 V, usually 12 and 24 V.

I have seen only LiPO 18 V batteries, used in power tools - for which you need LiPO charger.

post #2121 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

No batteries, charger for lead batteries only . Just try to search on your local LIDL ( or HOFER ) sites; they usually offer such items in actions, limited supply, but sometimes there are leftovers - or they come again after a few months. Here the video in Slovenian language ( here  it was on sale 2-3months ago) - perhaps you can track it down at your end :

http://www.lidl.si/cps/rde/SID-30EEB9CE-D5EAB480/www_lidl_si/hs.xsl/videooizdelku.htm

As for the battery itself; try to get as many Ah as possible given the money. Driving the turntable, constant draw of approx 800 maA is very easy application, no surges, no freezing temperatures etc as in a car - so some uber super duper battery is not required.

I am not familiar with Grado headphone amp or irs schematics, so I can not comment. But you can try to look if "central tap" is grounded and it is in fact +- 9 V DC supply and not single ended 18 V DC; if it is grounded +- 9 V, than you can not use a single 18 V battery. Also, sealed lead batteries usually come in multiples of 6 V, usually 12 and 24 V.
I have seen only LiPO 18 V batteries, used in power tools - for which you need LiPO charger.

I'll try the big one instead of a lot of small ones smily_headphones1.gif

also wanting to share with all of you the most expensive record that's totally not worth it, which i'm playing now, because i love gimmicks:
post #2122 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 


Just so you know, many MM phono stages will suit for an MM cart but for MC, while the ~~Graham Slee's phono preamps are "nice" they have the one fatal flaw of many MC amps. They don't allow input ohm setting. SO its one size fits all at 100ohm....even if your cart likes lower or higher. Too bad.

 

That's why I recommended a phono stage like the Phonomena II. LOOK for those features for the cart you have now and will be there for you on any future carts.

 

Thanks so much for the help!  I really eat up any information I can get, especially in things that I am so new to.  I have been a very digital person in terms of audio for years and years and I really appreciate guys like you helping me out when I decide to dabble in a little analogue for fun.

 

One reason i've been so "digital" can probably be blamed on my lifelong addiction (and career) with computers and technology.  However I am glad to expand a little and learn a lot more on something I have ignored for all these years.  I will probably end up getting the Phonomena II and thanks for all your input its much appreciated trust me. 

post #2123 of 2538

Here is another question.

 

How sensitive are the stylus's and what material are they primarily made of?  Say you barely tap it with your finger by accident or scrape your shirt against it etc?

 

Something that crossed my mind today.

post #2124 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rem1x View Post

Here is another question.

How sensitive are the stylus's and what material are they primarily made of?  Say you barely tap it with your finger by accident or scrape your shirt against it etc?

Something that crossed my mind today.

Very sensitive.

Your fingertip won't harm the stylus, your shirt most likely will.

The rod is made from metal(usually) and at the end there's a diamond tip, which is "glued" to the metal rod. So you could yank it off if you were to scrape your shirt against it.
The chances of that happening are very slim though.
post #2125 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rem1x View Post
 

Here is another question.

 

How sensitive are the stylus's and what material are they primarily made of?  Say you barely tap it with your finger by accident or scrape your shirt against it etc?

 

Something that crossed my mind today.

The styly are very sensitive. The better they are, the more sensitive they are.

 

In lower priced styly, cantilevers are metal tube ( mostly Aluminium ) and diamonds are bush or shank mounted. These may or not may have suspension tensioning wire (which is never visible but burried within the stylus/cartridge) that is also susceptible to rough handling of the stylus. This tension wire is usually made from steel and if the stylus gets a stroke/jolt outside its normal moving range, can get permanetly deformed/twisted to one side or another.

 

Metal cantilevers (at least of mostly aluminium ) can get bent - and still play afterwards, even if with somewhat reduced (but still useable and SAFE to records ) performance - if the damage is minor. They can even be bent back into "approximate original" shape (under the microscope) - but in such a case, I ALWAYS check the performance of such a stylus with test record(s) and an oscilloscope that it is safe for records to continue using such stylus.

 

Better metal and stone material cantilevers are generally brittle - you will never see a bent boron cantilever, when its mechanical properties are exceeded by rough handling, it will simply break. Same/similar with ruby, sapphire, diamond, and all but slightly less with beryllium ( in extreme cases it does get slightly bent, bvut DO NOT try to straighten it out - most likely it WILL break at such an attempt).

 

In better styli, diamond is ALWAYS nude mounted. I do not know any instance where "Less (Mass) is More" applies more than in styli.

 

The biggest nemesis in clothing for your stylus/cartridge? The sweater your grandma/mother/fiancee/some other dear person put so much loving care in hand knitting it - the fluff off such cartridge killers can extend pretty beyond what one would normally expect - and you will most likely NEVER feel the moment your $$$ stylus fell prey to this unexpected predator... - so, when working with cartridges (includes playing records), I HIGHLY recommend short sleeves or something that clings to your arms and does exhibit the least amount of fluff possible.

 

The percentage of new stylus or retipping for the cartridge with non user replaceable stylus can  VARY - BIG TIME. From something like 10 % of the cost of the new cart (like better Benz models) - to the whopping 195,000/200,000 ( Yen ) for Ikeda cantileverless MC cartridges. That 5,000 Yen difference did not even cover the cost for the air mail for a letter from Japan on so thin paper you could almost read the contents without opening the envelope - that did cost 6,000 Yen ... both in late 80s. So, an used up or damaged Ikeda cart is *perhaps* better kept as a souvenir, unless you find a retipper capable and willing to repair it at more reasonable fee.


Edited by analogsurviver - 1/23/14 at 11:47pm
post #2126 of 2538

Oh thanks for all the information guys!  I've also read about different platters and things to put your records on.  Do these things really matter?  Acrylic vs mats vs glass etc

post #2127 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rem1x View Post
 

Oh thanks for all the information guys!  I've also read about different platters and things to put your records on.  Do these things really matter?  Acrylic vs mats vs glass etc

It is THE thing that really matters. 

 

To the point I am not willing to disclose or share this hard learned knowledge - will probably result in a Kickstarter. 

post #2128 of 2538

What?

post #2129 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rem1x View Post
 

What?

Sorry - for most of you on this thread, this is a hobby.

 

I have been trying to perfect the reproduction from vinyl record from my late teens - from say 17 to until present day. So far, manufacturers have been coming up with small incements in performance in turntables - and charged premium for each and every one of them. Linn Sondek is a very good example; basically the same design, with ever small increments in design/performance over the years/decades, latest fully loaded machine is very co$tly - yet it never touched the real problems of vinyl replay. Because of "tradition", marketing, particular sound signature ( the turntable should by default be free from any signature ...) that found acceptance with more than few audiophiles - you name it - that always stood and still stands in between what a device should be doing and what a device is actually delivering in real life scenario. And no, I do not consider LP12 to be a bad player - only a lot less than it could have been. Specially for the price.

 

What has to be given to the Linn as a credit, it IS a precision machined piece of machinery - better than most. And that IS audible. They never allowed this to slip - something that can not be said about much of the competition.

 

Turntables have eclipsed LP12 in size, performance, price, bling, whatever , ages ago. Yet a turntable that is relatively affordable (say lower first digit 4 digit price range ) that is free from most obvious vices of its present  ilk is still - elusive. 

 

It is the use of materials and their combination that is one possible way of achieving it. And lots of R & D, to finally find that particular combo that can deliver best performance given the price constraints. There is no such thing, nor there will be,  as universally applicable "best" mat, platter, or whatever - but there are, or should be and WILL be developed "best combinations". A cleverly executed TT with a grand total net weight of say 10 kg in its composite build should be perfectly capable of exceedeing the performance of a X00 kg of chrome/acrylic/whatever . 

 

Just do not say you would be willing to share the results of such endavour for free on a forum... - while others have been charging for lot less a lot more troughout the audio history.

post #2130 of 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

Sorry - for most of you on this thread, this is a hobby.

 

I have been trying to perfect the reproduction from vinyl record from my late teens - from say 17 to until present day. So far, manufacturers have been coming up with small incements in performance in turntables - and charged premium for each and every one of them. Linn Sondek is a very good example; basically the same design, with ever small increments in design/performance over the years/decades, latest fully loaded machine is very co$tly - yet it never touched the real problems of vinyl replay. Because of "tradition", marketing, particular sound signature ( the turntable should by default be free from any signature ...) that found acceptance with more than few audiophiles - you name it - that always stood and still stands in between what a device should be doing and what a device is actually delivering in real life scenario. And no, I do not consider LP12 to be a bad player - only a lot less than it could have been. Specially for the price.

 

What has to be given to the Linn as a credit, it IS a precision machined piece of machinery - better than most. And that IS audible. They never allowed this to slip - something that can not be said about much of the competition.

 

Turntables have eclipsed LP12 in size, performance, price, bling, whatever , ages ago. Yet a turntable that is relatively affordable (say lower first digit 4 digit price range ) that is free from most obvious vices of its present  ilk is still - elusive. 

 

It is the use of materials and their combination that is one possible way of achieving it. And lots of R & D, to finally find that particular combo that can deliver best performance given the price constraints. There is no such thing, nor there will be,  as universally applicable "best" mat, platter, or whatever - but there are, or should be and WILL be developed "best combinations". A cleverly executed TT with a grand total net weight of say 10 kg in its composite build should be perfectly capable of exceedeing the performance of a X00 kg of chrome/acrylic/whatever . 

 

Just do not say you would be willing to share the results of such endavour for free on a forum... - while others have been charging for lot less a lot more troughout the audio history.

 

Im just trying to have a conversation and maybe learn a little bit about something I have ignored for years.

 

You seem to say a lot and very little at the same time.  :p

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