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post #1876 of 2460

Ah, the quirks of analog ! As these things go, this isn't the most bothersome. Thanks all for the explanation.

 

Just now listening to the Led Zeppelin thing, I'm certain that it's intentional as well : the echo travels across the stereo field while the main vocal does not. 

post #1877 of 2460
Thread Starter 

The Led Zeppelin was for sure on purpose.  However, you can clearly hear pre-echo on the 70's pressings of Yes's Fragile, to a much higher degree than you should.

post #1878 of 2460

Since I have lost all my turntable cleaning accessories, I have made a few purchases and just want to see if there's anything else I am missing cleaning related. I haven't bought a cleaning solution as I think I can get equal or better results brewing my own. Which begs the question, what do you vinyl aficionados use for a home-brewed solution with a vacuum record cleaner?

 

Things I have purchased:

  • Vinyl Styl Anti-Static Carbon Fiber Brush
  • KAB EV-1 Record Cleaner
  • Magic Eraser for Stylus cleaning
  • 100 2mil plastic inner LP sleeves

 

 

Thanks in advance! :L3000:

post #1879 of 2460

You can listen to the Frank Zappa's I am the Slime :

 

 

I admit of using pre and post echo as a final means of tuning the VTA - after the azimuth has been set to perfection. In that sense, I am

... gross and perverted, obsessed and deranged, I have existed for years, but very little has changed ...< LOL !

 

This pre/post echo can be either/or/and printrough from analog tape or mechanical residue after cutting in master acetate. Acetate is basically wax, and that is semi-liquid. When there is a loud signal. cutting stylus will not only cut the groove as intended, but slightly displace the adjacent wax surface - displacement is outside elastic limit which would return to the original position, it is plastic one that does not - hence you get pre or post echo in the acetate master itself, even if the disc is being cut direct to disc or from digital master, both of which have no pre/post echo as the analog tape. That is why Direct Metal Mastering or DMM, which is cutting directly into a metal master, hopefully avoiding this mechanical echo, came into being in the 80s - developed by Teldec ( Telefunken + Decca ) in Germany trough the lion's share of work done by Toolex Alpha from Sweden.

 

>Gross and perverted, obsessed and deranged<  can take advantage of these echoe(s). When VTA is exactly right, you not only will hear the echo, but it will have the exactly same resolution and texture as the main signal - some 50 or so dB down ! - the amount of information your setup will reveal when set up this good is scary indeed ! 

post #1880 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunk View Post

Since I have lost all my turntable cleaning accessories, I have made a few purchases and just want to see if there's anything else I am missing cleaning related.

I'd get a brush and solution to clean the stylus also. MoFi, Last, Discwasher, whatever. Just a way to get it wet.

3 or 4 mil outer sleeves are nice.

What are 2 mil plastic inner sleeves? Like the MoFi or different?
Edited by Eee Pee - 11/12/13 at 11:35am
post #1881 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post


I'd get a brush and solution to clean the stylus also. MoFi, Last, Discwasher, whatever. Just a way to get it wet.

3 or 4 mil outer sleeves are nice.

What are 2 mil plastic inner sleeves? Like the MoFi or different?

OK will do. 

 

Yeah sleeves are similar to MoFi, but cost a good bit less. Link here Not a perfect fit inside persay, but it gets the job done.


Edited by brunk - 11/12/13 at 11:58am
post #1882 of 2460

This week my first record purchase in what must be 27 years arrived in the post!

 

So with the arrival of a new record, some magic erasers a carbon brush and the digital scale in the post this week also it is time to try and tweak and hopefully coax some improvement out of my current set up.

 

After having a chance to do some critical listening with the beyerdynamic T1's this evening a couple of observations,

 

Firstly without question there has been an overall improvement after cleaning the stylus using the magic marker method today (I am not sure when it was cleaned last).

 

The improvements most noticeable have been in the details, not only in what I can hear in the recording but how it sounds with some really nice texture to vocals. Secondly slightly more and tighter bass and an overall improvement in musicality.

I went and checked on the same cd album that I have ripped to lossless and had to listen very intently to hear the details particularly in the treble region they were there but only faintly and recessed I had not noticed these details in the recordings at all prior to cleaning the stylus.

 

This brings me onto tracking force the P77 from what I can find has a recommended tracking force range of 1.6g - 2.2g I saw a couple of posts with 1.8g recommended as well.

 

I was able to take a reading as in the pic below perhaps not ideal position but the height looked correct.  It registered 2.13g towards the top end of the recommended 1.6g-2.2g

 

My question would be, do I leave it alone or try reducing the weight to be more in the middle of the range. What type of improvement/change  should I listen out for in order to judge how far to adjust the tracking force down and also what might I expect to notice as a result of the tracking force being to lite?

 

 

Any thoughts and advice welcome.


Edited by JamieMcC - 11/12/13 at 4:39pm
post #1883 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieMcC View Post
 

This brings me onto tracking force the P77 from what I can find has a recommended tracking force range of 1.6g - 2.2g I saw a couple of posts with 1.8g recommended as well.

 

I was able to take a reading as in the pic below perhaps not ideal position but the height looked correct.  It registered 2.13g towards the top end of the recommended 1.6g-2.2g

 

My question would be, do I leave it alone or try reducing the weight to be more in the middle of the range. What type of improvement/change  should I listen out for in order to judge how far to adjust the tracking force down and also what might I expect to notice as a result of the tracking force being to lite?

 

 

Any thoughts and advice welcome.

I have read advice from several reputable sources that say its better to have the tracking force on the heavier side. However, you might find that it could sound better with less weight. Best advice is to experiment because it's free, only costing maybe 30 minutes of your time!

post #1884 of 2460

Too little tracking force will cause distortion in loud, high frequencies due to the needle being rattled around, even to the point of skipping.  The weight has to be enough for the needle to stay in contact with the groove while riding those waves. 


Edited by Delirious Lab - 11/12/13 at 8:06pm
post #1885 of 2460

This is an ever lasting dillema. I know it to the core, but I do not want to wash the  extremely dirty analog laundry in public - if you catch my drift:wink_face:.

 

There are limitations as to what actual pressure vinyl groove can withstand to stay within the elastic limits of deformation, that is to say without permanent damage to the groove. I have covered that before " a couple of more posts back " right in this thread.

 

A honest quick FAST FORWARD answer to your question regarding your P77 - go & get that JICO SAS - ASAP ! It tracks at lighter VTF, has much bigger contact surface with the groove, therefore it is MUCH more vinyl friendly. Not to mention it sounds much better...

 

In the meantime, it is better to track on the heavier side - it still is less horrible to shave some highs from your records than to have jarring distortion at loud passages due to mistracking. Those baldy highs can be had back trough the use of Micro Ridge etc stylus, if you 

 

 

your records due to mistracking - it is (almost) all over...

post #1886 of 2460

:thumb: Great illustration!

post #1887 of 2460

Analogsurvivor, what cart would be a good fit for a Technics SL-20?  I'm looking for something that won't distort when Birgit Nilsson sings Wagner... a tall order with a budget setup.

post #1888 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirious Lab View Post
 

Analogsurvivor, what cart would be a good fit for a Technics SL-20?  I'm looking for something that won't distort when Birgit Nilsson sings Wagner... a tall order with a budget setup.

SL-2O is - nothing special. The only new deck I can think of that does not start asking for an arm and a leg is the "forever pending" Kickstarter U-Turn with its unipivot arm. Anything else in the lower priced bracket is like gambling - you can get superbly adjusted tonearm bearings in both planes, no free play and sufficiently low friction for proper operation of the cartridge. But that is close equivalent of hitting a jackpot in Las Vegas in real life... The same applies to vintage decks.

 

Sooooo - balance your arm to zero, so that it floats freely. You can remove the stylus if you feel more comfortable that way. Then gently breathe into the headshell - arm should move. If the arm gets "stuck" at some point, either in vertical or lateral plane, you can kiss SL20 goodbye (unlees you can adjust bearings yourself ). If you can feel "clicking" if you pull and rotate the arm gently at the headshell, you have free play - not that bad as stucking, but not great either. If SL20 passes this test - there are lots of carts that might be suitable. I can see that you are in Canada, which is a bit awkward place in terms of cartridges ( 1 cartridge per how many square miles ? :D ) - and shipping/import duties. Or, under certain circumstances, can be a great place to hunt for cartridges. 

 

Please try your SL-20 as described above. If OK,  check Canadian ebay, Cannuck Audio Mart, "Canadian Craiglist" or similar - and report what cartridges you have found available at your end.

post #1889 of 2460

Thanks, will do the test tonight.  My local shop has a 90-day return guarantee if anything's wrong with the TT.  Meanwhile, here are my canuckaudiomart findings:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/classifieds/33-phono_cartridges/?country=All&sortby=price_asc


Edited by Delirious Lab - 11/13/13 at 6:28am
post #1890 of 2460

yesterday rewired my turntables RCA cable, ground wire,(which are now double the length) and electricity cable. it's amazing how much the sound has improved with these normal RCA wires.

 

@analogsurviver what's so special about the uturn kickstarter turntable? to me it looks like a pro-ject turntable?

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