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post #1546 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoJo View Post

analogsurviver:  thanks for your quick response.  I ask because it sounds so much better on MC.  The bass is better and the overall sound is warmer and more full bodied.  Am I hurting anything using that setting?

No problem, you welcome. This question belongs in my post regarding phono cartridge loading - which I keep postponing, hopefully not into infinite future.

 

MC setting does, usually but not always, besides gain change mean also input impedance change. MCs require relatively low input impedance and MMs high, MCs are next to unaffected by the capacitive portion of impedance and MMs react violently to capacitance change.  Grado  is perhaps one of the if not THE fixed coil ( MM, MI, MF etc ) design least affected by capacitance variations - but certainly the most widespread.It tolerates far greater load impedance variations before sounding decidedly wrong than anything else that has coil fixed.

 

You are not hurting anything with your MC setting - nothing will go belly up because of it. But you are limitting your phono stage headroom ( use KAB calculator ) - check up the recordings you find "with better bass, warmer and more full bodied" with their CD counterparts - MC setting for MM cart may well result in dynamic compressor atop of a HEAVY tone control - if it sounds decidedly different than its CD  version, it means you have created just that - you may like it, but accurate and correct it is most definitely not.

post #1547 of 2542

Thanks again analogsurviver.  I had another question regarding records:  I get this harsh really bad sibilance on certain records.  It is really really bad.  Any ideas on what is causing it?

post #1548 of 2542
Thread Starter 
Are the records that sound bad to you in good condition, and clean? And you have other records that do not exhibit this problem?

Could be damaged records, but it could also be a misaligned cartridge. Who did the set up of your Grado?
post #1549 of 2542

Hi Skylab, thanks for responding.  I clean all my records with a VPI cleaning machine.  They look pretty nice to me... not in bad condition.  No scratches or any obvious damage.  Maybe slightly warped, but that would be it.  I got my cart aligned by a reputable company in my city (Indianapolis).  I don't want to mention them by name, but they sell all sorts of high end equipment and do installs.  I always kinda suspected they didn't take my Music Hall MMF 2.2 seriously as it is far below their normal merchandise in terms of price.

post #1550 of 2542
Thread Starter 
Well that all sounds pretty good, honestly. So it's on sme records but not others?
post #1551 of 2542

Yes, it shows up in varying degrees on different records.  Some records don't have it at all.  Others have it really bad.  It can show up in different spots on the record, too.  Sometimes towards the end of a side on one LP, and others in the middle of a side.

post #1552 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoJo View Post

Thanks again analogsurviver.  I had another question regarding records:  I get this harsh really bad sibilance on certain records.  It is really really bad.  Any ideas on what is causing it?

AAAAAAaaaaarrrrr.................gH ! 

 

Not AGAIN... !

 

I certainly did not want to take it out on you personally - but it has been covered in this thread already.

 

Please take your time and read it through. You will at least find the pointers what to look for - it usually unfortunately boils down to - everything, each cause can add some to of your pres%scHent $ibilance i$$ues.

 

Anyone trying to give you a rosy picture by giving you a partial answer that is likely to be more palatable to your ears (and wallet...) would be in fact doing you a disfavour. 

 

You have the RCM ground covered - good foundation to start building upon.

 

Of course, we all and I personally try to do it right at the minimum cost - that WILL do the job.

In my back posts, you will find I am fond of Grado - but NOT prior its requirements have  been satisfactorily met. And if you learn how to make Grado sing well, there will hardly be a cart you would not be able to make at least listenable.

 

On the other hand, world's best, yet not made cartridge, will never be comparable in quality to even modest amplifier done right, such as say NAD 3020 integrated ( vintage) amp. No matter what it ( will ) cost. So, some room for compromise will be in order regardless the level you are working with - but I used to say and still stand firmly behind this statement :

 

Regardless of the fact you own 5 or six figure turntable system - if you claim that music can not be enjoyed on a well adjusted Project RPM4 turntable fitted with Project K4 ( Grado Black rebrand ) cartridge - YOU ARE LYING !

 

One could write a book regarding differences between the two, but a well adjusted RPM4 should have no trouble showing a clear pair of heels to CD players - and that alone is enough for one to enjoy it and eventually upgrade in the future.

 

Kind of "chinese wisdom" answer: if you give to the hungry a fish, you fed him for a day. 

If you teach him how to fish, you provided him with food - for life.

post #1553 of 2542

well I should put in that it is really alot worse than just a sibilance on the ssss's.   It's really really bad on ch's and sh's too.  It sounds like distortion.  Sorry I didn't search the thread first.

post #1554 of 2542
Thread Starter 
AS is right, could be a lot of things. But it definitely shouldn't be happening. I would take it back to where you bought it, if you can, and ask them to check it.
post #1555 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoJo View Post

well I should put in that it is really alot worse than just a sibilance on the ssss's.   It's really really bad on ch's and sh's too.  It sounds like distortion.  Sorry I didn't search the thread first.

+1 what skylab said and take the offending records with you and make them play them to hear the distortion you're concerned about.  Maybe they can fix that.

post #1556 of 2542

That's a really good idea.  I just sent them an email, since it is after hours.  We'll see if they want to fix it.  Like I said they do high end stuff.  I got the cart there.  I bought the turntable online somewhere else.  When my motor died on this turntable they wouldn't replace it and referred me somewhere else.  That just occurred to me, could it be the new motor?

post #1557 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoJo View Post

That's a really good idea.  I just sent them an email, since it is after hours.  We'll see if they want to fix it.  Like I said they do high end stuff.  I got the cart there.  I bought the turntable online somewhere else.  When my motor died on this turntable they wouldn't replace it and referred me somewhere else.  That just occurred to me, could it be the new motor?

Does this issue happen on all records or just some? If so, have you tried playing the offending records on a different turntable setup? Sometimes (a lot of times) vinyl records get damaged and the sibilance is particularly bad.

 

It happens to my new records too. I've setup everything right but it still happens. confused_face_2.gif wondering what did I do wrong.

post #1558 of 2542
Thread Starter 
I have ZERO excess sibilance on any of my three vinyl rigs. And I own more than a thousand records, many of which were bought used. If you have harsh sound from vinyl, and your records are clean and not horribly damaged, then the problem is almost surely with the cartridge alignment.
post #1559 of 2542

Does it mean anything if it goes away when I put my phono amp into MC mode and playback the record?  Like I said, I have a Grado cart.

post #1560 of 2542

A turntable or record player ( just to make sure : motor/arm/cartridge combination ) is perhaps THE sterling example of all things technical and human related, usually far from working in concert. The guy that does the motor will say it is a problem of the arm maker, the guy that does the arm will say it is a problem of the cartridge maker - and so on, table tennis game turned into perpetuum mobile. And there may well be a commercial reason of some party involved that will prevent you from getting a fair answer and solution to the problem.

 

The fact that MisterMoJo preferred MM cart into a MC load/gain suggests this may be one of the worse cases. Falling high frequency response that usually results must have been helping masking some/much of the distortion. As always, prevention is better than ( inappropriate ) cure.

 

It is either depending on the dealer ( questionable as found out ), getting the table fixed by an unbiased expert ( like myself, do not expect it for free, it is usually a day's work, and that does not mean 8 working hours but usually more, till the thing starts to sound right ) - or the best solution, learn how to align/adjust the turntable by yourself. Minimum requirements : alignment gauge, vertical tracking force gauge, NEW unused test record - and the ability to use all of these. 

 

The list of mechanisms that can lead to distortion in turntables:

 

1. Stylus worn

2. Stylus improperly ground/misaligned relative to cantilever

3. Cartridge misaligned

4. Vertical tonearm bearing - free play (resonances ) or too tight, making the arm to stick more at some points across the arc than others and/or not         frictionless enough to allow the stylus to track.

5. Horizontal tonearm bearing - same reasons as above

6. Vertical tracking force too low to track the recorded signal - usually occurs most at approx 5-10 kHz range, where recording velocities peak and can     reach and exceed 100 cm/s - those pesky sibilants and an occasional really well recorded cymbal crash etc. Not even the best carts do not do             well here - you need effective stylus mass as low as you can possibly get ( and afford ...; just look at the Grado range prices and you will get the         idea, you are paying for lower effective mass and higher precision, basically the cart is the same design from top to the bottom of the range )

7. Antiskating set too high or too low relative to the vertical tracking force used.

8. Cartridge electrical load misaligned enough to cause severe peaking in response that can lead to the sibilance.

9.  Phono preamp overload too low, leading to sibilance with hot(ter) recordings

10. ALL of the above can - and DO - interact with each other, in all combinations and permutations possible.

 

11. THE WORST of them all - record(s) permanently damaged due to anything or combination of 1 through 7. Here only the use of Micro Linear        (Scanner, Ridge, Reach, SAS ) or VdH I (or equivalent(s)) stylus tip profile can offer remedy that will sound acceptable - BUT only if the damage to the records has been inflicted by the use of the less sharp stylus profile - which is the only saving grace you can reasonably count on. Styli mentioned are TOTL and therefore expensive, one does not usually start turntable journey with these top styli.

 

Without access to the turntable in question it is impossible to say what is the (most offending) problem.

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