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post #1111 of 2864

Oh hey those last two have bubble levels on them. Neato man. I've always thought somehow they have clamping mechanisms to hold onto unthreaded spindles, or else clamps would be available only for the select few.

post #1112 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by penmarker View Post

Oh hey those last two have bubble levels on them. Neato man. I've always thought somehow they have clamping mechanisms to hold onto unthreaded spindles, or else clamps would be available only for the select few.

I do not know how thrustworthy are those spirit levels built into clamp tops. Not because of precision of clamps/spirit levels themselves - but record label surfaces are sometimes anything but really flat and clamp will clamp to that - there is always enough "freeplay" in the spindle/record clamp interface to allow for this slight deviation from trully "level" - perhaps using such a spirit level without any record on the platter would give more accuarate result as far as leveling is concerned. YMMV.

 

Variation on the theme - $$$ version without the spirit level

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eszFbLtKx4

post #1113 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

As much as I would have liked to say this is not the case - unfortunately records do wear out with playing. It is only question of degree. It can be held to an acceptable degree with the proper choice of the cartridge and arm.

 

You DO NOT want to know all the nitty gritty of it. Suffice to say - the lower the tracking force needed for still acceptable trackability, the higher the stylus to vinyl contact area (thus minimising the actual pressure on the vinyl ) - the better. Remember one thing - if you think that stylus is tracking at whatever preset VTF value while actually tracking the actual real world groove on the real world record - please find that Bruel & Kjaer link I posted more than often enough in this thread. It is clearly shown that VTF is ANYTHING but constant while playing, with peaks ( due to warps etc ) sometimes exceeding nominal value by 200 % or more - and more dangerously, there are moments where cart/stylus is tracking at NEGATIVE (!) VTF. 

 

Shure used ( back in the days they were serious player in analog ) to publish the Scanning Electron Microscope images of record grooves - usually some hot recordings in the treble, where they wanted to show off their better offerings. Usually, an unplayed groove was shown first, than the same groove played by Shure x times, then same groove played by Shure nx times ( with slight wear visible ),  than the same groove played once with a competitor's TOTL, usually MC cartridge - not a pretty sight to see, let alone listen. Once I get my scanner up, I will post those photos.

 

Here is a link to Shure V15V Users Manual http://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/v15.shtml . It covers trackability and record wear issues with more openess than seen anywhere else. You will have to register with the vinylengine - but I guess that w 1ill not prove to be a  problem to anyone reading this thread. I only recently found this document regarding playback noise increase when using conventional grade of stylus polishing vs then state of the art Shure MASAR polishing http://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/ml140he.shtml 

 

Unfortunately, the current trend towards low compliance cartridges and 12 " arms, with nominally higher VTfs and in excess of 50 % increase in inertia

( inertia is function of the distance from the fulcrum SQUARED - 9 inch arm is 9squared = 81, 12 inch arm is 12 squared = 144 - and is a single most offensive factor regarding record wear ) is very bad news for record wear. Playback equipment manufacturers keep as low profile as possible regarding this - and get away with it, as hardly any objective measurements of phono equipment is published anymore.

 

Physics laws and vinyl properties have not changed. Apply the figures in V15V regarding stylus shape, mass etc to current VTFs, factor in variation of VTF as shown in the Bruel & Kjear paper, multiply it by 50 % in case of 12" arm - and take off the rosy picture glasses.  Unless you want to count the plays of your new record before serious degradation in sound quality occurs with fingers of your single hand.

 

I think the most important thing you have discussed so far is that to reduce vinyl wear:

1.  get a good cartridge

2.  get it set up PROPERLY!

I'll add my personal favourite

3.  quit lending your records to barbarians, Vandals, Visogoths, Huns and various other uncivilized savages redface.gif

 

The most important thing I ever did was to use a proper gauge for tonearm geometry.

The little white plastc widget that came with my first Technics turntable was an inaccurate piece of junk!  angry_face.gif

post #1114 of 2864

The dealer set my VTA and Azimuth up by eyeballing it, might be time to get a gauge

post #1115 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

3.  quit lending your records to barbarians, Vandals, Visogoths, Huns and various other uncivilized savages redface.gif

 

 

The last time I leant a record--- 1984.  I had found a great sounding rehearsal bootleg of Led Zeppelin, just before Bonham died-- preparing for their "In Through the Out Door" tour, recorded in Germany, I believe.  It had a live version of Kashmir I'd never heard.

 

My friend was throwing a party, and wanted to play the record for everyone-- but I wasn't going to be at the party until later-- so I gave it to him.  I walked in the party-- my friends well lit-- and found it laying bare on a concrete floor-- thoroughly scatched. 

 

Never.  Again.

post #1116 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

I think the most important thing you have discussed so far is that to reduce vinyl wear:T

1.  get a good cartridge

2.  get it set up PROPERLY!

I'll add my personal favourite

3.  quit lending your records to barbarians, Vandals, Visogoths, Huns and various other uncivilized savages redface.gif

 

The most important thing I ever did was to use a proper gauge for tonearm geometry.

The little white plastc widget that came with my first Technics turntable was an inaccurate piece of junk!  angry_face.gif

I simply want to make people who still cherish the music high enough to be put up with all the trouble and discomfort analog does bring along compared to push on a button with digital not to become themselves their very own barbarians, Vandals, Visogoths, Huns and various other uncivilized savages - by using equipment that has in small print ( or worse, with invisible ink that becomes visible after say 5 plays of a LP ) written the most devastating sentence possible - 

 

Apres moi le deluge .

 

This trend has been going on for decades now, starting with the rising popularity of MCs. I am no enemy of the MC principle a priori, but a quarter of a century should be enough for the manufacturers to find an effective solution regarding generally too low compliance of MCs and consequently high tracking forces needed. Lower compliance = greater effective mass of the arm needed. One pays reduction in tracking angle error offered by 12" arms compared to 9" with > 50 % increase of inertia - the best possible recipe if quick destruction of records is the goal.

 

I am perfectly aware high(er) compliance designs are more demanding regarding arm requirements and precision of adjustments that have to be carried out prior these designs can really begin to sing. Getting a Shure V15V to sing is more challenging than ANY low(er) compliance MC - past, present or future. Those who think otherwise - sorry, you have never heard it right.  I am not going to say it was the best cart ever - not even close - but it will hold its own and whatever shortcomings it might have, destroyed records will never be the legacy it will leave you once you find something better. ( save for misaligned styli, unfortunately too common towards the end of production/availability ).

 

Please read the link I posted regarding stylus profiles - there is original VdH paper on his stylus. 

It is about the greatest surface contact with vinyl design possible - yet he clearly wrote that to stay within the elastic limits ( NO permanent demage ) of the vinyl no more than 1.5 g ( 15 mN to be exact ) of VTF is recommended. For the first years, the most important features of this design were always printed in VdH brochures - then quietly dissapeared. He is hardly the only to blame - look at the specs of the latest MCs, everybody is trying to convience you tracking at 2.5 gram + is safe.  I very doubt it is possible to design a stylus with twice the footprint of VdH I that would still keep the vinyl deformation within elastic limits - without becoming too critical for adjustment to be really useable outside of the lab. VdH I ( and Micro Whatevers ) still have some rounding of the large scanning radius and thus a bit of tolerance regarding azimuth misalignment ( records are NOT all cut exactly as they should have been, as evidenced even on test records - do you expect normal musical records to be as well cut and pressed as test records ? ) At the introduction of VdH, there was some ( justified and DOCUMENTED ) criticism of VdH stylus  - it can re-cut the record if not aligned properly. And now a TWICE more unforgiving stylus tracked at TWICE the VTF because of its low compliance mounted in a heavy arm to have correct frequency response should be allowed to roam freely on MY records ?

 

Please read these papers. They are not cookbook recipes/reviews "If I splash XY.000 $ on my cart, it should be divine sounding, better than anything that went on before ". You will be able to make at least an informed decision. If after, all the evidence what is caused to the vinyl using various possibilities to track it, you choose the most massive low compliance cart tracking at heaviest VTF mounted in the heaviest and longest arm with the most inertia possible because of the "sound quality" - make sure you are recording that first playing of the new LP - because subsequent plays will sound worse than this recording. With this or any other more reasonable phono playback equipment.

 

Back in the "CD crushes all in its path" days, I used to buy 2 copies of LPs I liked and was planning to buy anyway - because merchants put LPs on sale in hope to get rid of this "junk" while they still can get at least some money for them. One gets acustomed to the sound of an LP as it is played repeatedly - the first to go are highs, and it is not as you would expect for them to go "bald" - the highs go UP in level, acompanied with much distortion. Playing an "everyday workhorse LP" against "reference LP played < 10 times" of the same album is a VERY sobering if not entirely pleasing experience.

 

Record wear is something you can only prevent by using laser turntable. Which demands absolutely clean records, as it can not sweep any dust as the stylus (in limited amount ) can and does - laser will read that piece of fluff  and can not diferentiate it from information in the groove. This means vacuum cleaning immediately before EACH side is played - EVERY time. I think this is too much for regular everyday use and is mainly reserved to archiving purposes. If any of the readers has experience with ELP laser turntable or even owns it, please share your experience.

 

It is impossible to totally eliminate wear with mechanical stylus - but it is possible to reduce it to an acceptable level. Differences in wear can be staggering from one combination to another. I only  hope the gentleman with Transcriptors Transcriber turntable with its Microtracer arm is fully aware of what he has - it is the gentlest thing you can use to play vinyl short of a laser beam. 

post #1117 of 2864
Thread Starter 

All that said, I've played my copy of the original MFSL of Dark Side of the Moon at least 100 times, maybe more, and it still sounds fabulous. 

post #1118 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

All that said, I've played my copy of the original MFSL of Dark Side of the Moon at least 100 times, maybe more, and it still sounds fabulous. 

Probably because you've calibrated your turntable well.

post #1119 of 2864
Thread Starter 

Exactly! I spend a lot of time getting cartridge alignment right when I get a new cartridge or TT. It's worth spending time on.

post #1120 of 2864

I loved the fact I didn't really have to worry about that stuff with my Amadeus...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Exactly! I spend a lot of time getting cartridge alignment right when I get a new cartridge or TT. It's worth spending time on.

post #1121 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

All that said, I've played my copy of the original MFSL of Dark Side of the Moon at least 100 times, maybe more, and it still sounds fabulous. 

MFSLs, at least some, have been printed on Japanese vinyl. This vynil was developed for the quadrophonic reproduction by the JVC. Quadrophonic was not exactly the greatest design ( S/N ratio in particular was poor ), but it worked if this vynil was used. Quadropohonic requires a high frequency carrier, varies a bit regarding the exact frequency , but is in the 40 kHz range. When softer, easier to use american vynil was used for quadrophonic records, these wore out really fast and lead to quick demise of the whole concept.

 

Quadrophonic was a commercial failure, but provided more boost to the research and development of phono cartridges and styli ( JVC's Shibata and everything that followed ) than anything else in the history. Wish that formula for vinyl saw more widespread use - as it is, MFSLs and some Reference Recordings pressed by JVC  is all that "remains". In percentage of all LPs out there, an invisible number - but a reminder of what can be done. These pressings sound superb on first play and retain their superiotity with MANY subsequent plays. 

 

Still, JVC TRS 1007 test discs ( of course pressed on best JVC vinyl ) show the same pattern of use - it only occurs after more plays.

 

We have to take care of what we have to deal with on regular basis - and that is normal soft vinyl.

 

I only wish I had Versa Dynamics table, Technics EPC P100CMK4 cartridge WITH MICRO LINE STYLUS ( does not exist and can not be retipped , at least not while retaining its original super high specs ) tracked at 1.25 g, with every LP pressed on that Japanese vinyl - the first possible with lot of money, the other two only wisful thinking. It would be good out to at least 80 kHz where normal equipment has trouble with wear and distortion in the audible range.

 

I try to use each and every, no matter how widespread or super rare, piece of equipment or information to make users aware of various issues regarding vinyl. Try to apply it to whatever you can (still) lay your hands on. 

 

PS: Seting the cartridge/tonearm correctly goes without saying. All I have written assume perfect alignment and tracking set optimally for any cart/arm combination.


Edited by analogsurviver - 3/21/13 at 1:22am
post #1122 of 2864

Hey all! Just starting out, I'm extremely interested in using a turntable. I  want to use them with my DT990's and Some studio monitors.... I'm really unsure of what I need, except the fact I need a turntable and a new cartridge. I'm thinking less than 100 new or used for the table, and then a similar amount for whatever else I need. If someone wants to help me out with craigslist, I'm in the SF Bay Area North Bay.... Sorting wold be appreciated. I am also wondering if I can use my Yulong U100 as an amp of some sort.... Maybe short term to save up for a nicer amp to drive a real pair of speakers instead of powered monitors.

post #1123 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdraluck23 View Post

Hey all! Just starting out, I'm extremely interested in using a turntable. I  want to use them with my DT990's and Some studio monitors.... I'm really unsure of what I need, except the fact I need a turntable and a new cartridge. I'm thinking less than 100 new or used for the table, and then a similar amount for whatever else I need. If someone wants to help me out with craigslist, I'm in the SF Bay Area North Bay.... Sorting wold be appreciated. I am also wondering if I can use my Yulong U100 as an amp of some sort.... Maybe short term to save up for a nicer amp to drive a real pair of speakers instead of powered monitors.

I do not know if it still possible to get it at the $ 150 introductory price, but basic Kickstarter U Turn Orbit deck would be a very safe bet about your price level. Very little to go wrong with this design.

You need a phono preamp (RIAA equalized ) stage in front of your Yulong U100. They start at http://www.ebay.de/itm/RIAA-Phono-Preamp-Record-Player-Turntable-Amplifier-Amp-/390288260142?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5adefe3c2e#ht_1677wt_882, but from your description a vintage receiver might seem what you are after - of course one with phono input. Being from Europe, cant't help with craiglist.

post #1124 of 2864
Quote:
Originally Posted by reeltime View Post

 

The last time I leant a record--- 1984.  I had found a great sounding rehearsal bootleg of Led Zeppelin, just before Bonham died-- preparing for their "In Through the Out Door" tour, recorded in Germany, I believe.  It had a live version of Kashmir I'd never heard.

 

My friend was throwing a party, and wanted to play the record for everyone-- but I wasn't going to be at the party until later-- so I gave it to him.  I walked in the party-- my friends well lit-- and found it laying bare on a concrete floor-- thoroughly scatched. 

 

Never.  Again.

 

Reminds me of the time my friend wanted to borrow all my Bruce Springsteen 12" 45 RPM limited editions to tape for her husband's birthday present.

She didn't understand why I said "no!" or why her el-cheapo, poorly set-up record player with the very old cartridge would ruin my records no matter how careful and gentle she was with my rare vinyl.

 

I don't know how much vinyl my well meaning friends destroyed in the late 70's and early 80's!  It's beyond count!


Edited by Chris J - 3/21/13 at 9:27am
post #1125 of 2864
Thread Starter 

It's a little hard to tell but I think the introductory price on the UTurn Orbit is no longer available.

 

had a fascinating few minutes just now looking at the SF Craigslist. Some decent TTs on there, most of which are way outside your price range, and then a lot of utter crap.

 

One listing that caught my eye was this one:

 

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/3670766512.html

 

This isn't anything close to high end vintage audio equipment.  That said, you are on a very tight budget, and this would give you a complete vinyl playback system with (if it is as advertised) a brand new stylus.  The P mount cartridge doesn't allow a lot of upgrade options, but I wouldn't bother.  You could probably talk the guy into $150 or less for the system, and you would be ready to go buy records. If you decide you want to upgrade later, just sell that stuff and start over.

 

All the other CL stuff I saw was either too expensive, looked rough, or needed work.

 

You might try hitting garage sales, but you would need to go armed with some knowledge. 

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