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post #1096 of 2542

Top of the cartridge is what should be parallel (nevermind the microscope to get the stylus in the proper position).  It's all about the cartridge's position relative to the record, not the arm's.  Actually, the stylus', but yeah...

post #1097 of 2542

True, but I've never run into a table that didn't also apply that logic to the arm.

 

;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

Top of the cartridge is what should be parallel (nevermind the microscope to get the stylus in the proper position).  It's all about the cartridge's position relative to the record, not the arm's.  Actually, the stylus', but yeah...

post #1098 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbidToaster View Post

It should indeed be parallel. At all times, IIRC.

Well, to my eye, my tone arm has a very slight upward angle (back to cartridge) when playing. I may tweak the angle a bit by raising the back of the tone arm.

Or maybe a better solution is to take the whole table to a local shop to have them get the whole thing tweaked properly. I like learning how to do things myself generally- so I'm gonna have to give it a think.
post #1099 of 2542

My old VPI arm has a line for parallel because it's a tapered tube, so I'm with ya.

 

 

post #1100 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grevlin View Post


Well, to my eye, my tone arm has a very slight upward angle (back to cartridge) when playing. I may tweak the angle a bit by raising the back of the tone arm.

Or maybe a better solution is to take the whole table to a local shop to have them get the whole thing tweaked properly. I like learning how to do things myself generally- so I'm gonna have to give it a think.

If you want to learn how to, send it to a shop and ask them if it's okay for you to watch them do it, or maybe try to ask if you could do it yourself. Under a professional supervision, at least you're a little more confident about what you're doing. If you make a mistake someone is there to point it out.

 

Just hope the calibrator isn't some grumpy bitter old man lol. But usually those kinds of people are generally nice and chatty. Been having good experiences with other people.

Well, there's the occasional snobbish hi-fi store owners, but who cares.

post #1101 of 2542

Question for the field: I've thought of about a dozen ways to do this-- but I'd love to get some opinions-- 

 

I have the VPI Scout, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridge, Clearaudio Basic+ phono stage feeding my WA5LE.  I'm contemplating putting the turntable into my Genelecs on my desktop on occasion.  To do this I need a potentiometer in the signal chain, because the Genelecs are amped-- so the Woo is out of the question here.  Also-- the Genelecs are balanced inputs.  I have a CleanBox Pro that would do the job, but I'd love to hear about other options I might not have considered.

post #1102 of 2542

First thing that popped into my mind was the PS Audio GCPH.

post #1103 of 2542

I've been reading that some direct drive turntables cannot handle record clamps because the weight will put stress on the main motor and bearings. What other alternative will you have? And how would you know if you're putting stress on the motors?

post #1104 of 2542

A record WEIGHT maybe not, but clamps don't really add much weight at all.

 

Plus most DD motors are quite strong. I've never heard of it being a problem. I know a few who use weights and rings weights on their 1200s with no issues.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by penmarker View Post

I've been reading that some direct drive turntables cannot handle record clamps because the weight will put stress on the main motor and bearings. What other alternative will you have? And how would you know if you're putting stress on the motors?

post #1105 of 2542

Of course, weights, confused it with clamps. So, do record clamps require special threaded spindles? Because I see when people want to put them on they spin it like bottlecaps.

 

Curious about the ring weights and how much improvements do they provide.

post #1106 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbidToaster View Post

It should indeed be parallel. At all times, IIRC.

 

NOT true. True in a perfect world, with perfectly made styli, with perfectly adjusted stylus suspension - that does not change one iota with use. VTA will change on any new out of the box cartridge - that is why it has to be re-adjusted after say 50 -100 hours of play. Van den Hul offers and encourages rechecking and final setup for his better carts - it is only possible to be done after the cart has been burnt or played in. Any respectable cart manufacturer will do the same in case cart is returned - only commercial constraints may differ.

 

Even within the same make and model of cart, there will be differences. If these differences are held within one degree sample to sample, you are talking of the premium production quality.

 

VTA was NEVER satisfactorily standardized - Shure V 15 series got name after this 15 degree standard - which grew later to official 20 degree, with manufacturers oft using 23 or even more. If you ever saw a true VTA measuring device ( it is screen of the size of the "normal" TV screen ) and measured the VTA for various carts at their recommended VTF, you would very quickly grasp the idea why VTA adjustment, preferably continous one on the fly, is a VERY good thing. Remember, what you are actually changing is SRA ( Stylus Rake Angle ) as well - this should be approx 92 degree - and very small changes produce quite different results, both audibly and measurably. The subject of VTA/SRA is beyond forum level, there is enough papers in the JAES. Since you can not change SRA to VTA relation in a stylus ( other than physically bend it into desired/needed "shape ") - these papers, although certainly illuminating, can in practice only lead customer towards proper choice of brand/model. As these papers date back to golden era for analog ( late 70s/80s) that goes for NOS carts - no current production is as well monitored by third parties as it used to be back then. And it does make sense to have a 15 degree VTA and 20 degree VTA cart in collection - because over the years and decades, VTA used for record cutting has changed - by at least 5 degrees.

 

What it boils down to in practice ? If your stylus is not significantly off in VTA/SRA from what it should have been - too low a VTA ( arm at the beaering side too low ) will result in a mellow wooly bass, highs will be subdued and everything will sound very tame. If VTA is too high - there will be highs, highs and almost nothing but the highs - piercing, shrill; bass reduced to an afterthought. Between the two extremes, there is a VERY NARROW area where things suddenly ""click in" - there will be both extension and precision in bass, highs will be there just as they are supposed to, there will invariably be the best soundstage when the VTA is correct - one of the most telling signs that you are approaching the correct setting is the fact that vinyl noise will change its character - it sounds quite different with VTA too low, too high or correct.

 

But yes, starting point for establishing the VTA adjustment is always parallel with the record surface - except for some brands that are known to deviate from this in repeatable enough fashion and it makes sense to start from that "middle" point.

post #1107 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by awsanderson View Post

I was talking to some "older" people today and they were telling me records will wear out after being played a bunch, is this true?   newb question

As much as I would have liked to say this is not the case - unfortunately records do wear out with playing. It is only question of degree. It can be held to an acceptable degree with the proper choice of the cartridge and arm.

 

You DO NOT want to know all the nitty gritty of it. Suffice to say - the lower the tracking force needed for still acceptable trackability, the higher the stylus to vinyl contact area (thus minimising the actual pressure on the vinyl ) - the better. Remember one thing - if you think that stylus is tracking at whatever preset VTF value while actually tracking the actual real world groove on the real world record - please find that Bruel & Kjaer link I posted more than often enough in this thread. It is clearly shown that VTF is ANYTHING but constant while playing, with peaks ( due to warps etc ) sometimes exceeding nominal value by 200 % or more - and more dangerously, there are moments where cart/stylus is tracking at NEGATIVE (!) VTF. 

 

Shure used ( back in the days they were serious player in analog ) to publish the Scanning Electron Microscope images of record grooves - usually some hot recordings in the treble, where they wanted to show off their better offerings. Usually, an unplayed groove was shown first, than the same groove played by Shure x times, then same groove played by Shure nx times ( with slight wear visible ),  than the same groove played once with a competitor's TOTL, usually MC cartridge - not a pretty sight to see, let alone listen. Once I get my scanner up, I will post those photos.

 

Here is a link to Shure V15V Users Manual http://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/v15.shtml . It covers trackability and record wear issues with more openess than seen anywhere else. You will have to register with the vinylengine - but I guess that w 1ill not prove to be a  problem to anyone reading this thread. I only recently found this document regarding playback noise increase when using conventional grade of stylus polishing vs then state of the art Shure MASAR polishing http://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/ml140he.shtml 

 

Unfortunately, the current trend towards low compliance cartridges and 12 " arms, with nominally higher VTfs and in excess of 50 % increase in inertia

( inertia is function of the distance from the fulcrum SQUARED - 9 inch arm is 9squared = 81, 12 inch arm is 12 squared = 144 - and is a single most offensive factor regarding record wear ) is very bad news for record wear. Playback equipment manufacturers keep as low profile as possible regarding this - and get away with it, as hardly any objective measurements of phono equipment is published anymore.

 

Physics laws and vinyl properties have not changed. Apply the figures in V15V regarding stylus shape, mass etc to current VTFs, factor in variation of VTF as shown in the Bruel & Kjear paper, multiply it by 50 % in case of 12" arm - and take off the rosy picture glasses.  Unless you want to count the plays of your new record before serious degradation in sound quality occurs with fingers of your single hand.

post #1108 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by penmarker View Post

Of course, weights, confused it with clamps. So, do record clamps require special threaded spindles? Because I see when people want to put them on they spin it like bottlecaps.

 

Curious about the ring weights and how much improvements do they provide.

Yes and no. There are TTs specifically made with threaded spindles and proprietary clamps. But in case that normal spindle is not too short, a clamp that grabs on the normal unthreaded spindle and can be tightened with a screw within the clamp itself can be used to the same effect. 

 

Rim weights are effective - to a point. Drawback is that they have to be meticioulously positioned ( manufacturers usually provide centreing devices to go along such a rim ring weight ) - you do not want say a half or more kg mass to unbalance your platter.

 

Both clamps/weights and rim weights can be replaced with vacuum suction stabilizers - either add-ons or integral to the TT design.

 

A motor in a DD generally has enough torque to maintain correct speed with the additional weight. SL1200 can handle AT666EX vacumm stabilizer ( approx 1400 gram ) without problems ( and VTA can - just - be raised enough to allow for the 9.5 mm thick "mat"). No idea on the long term effects of the increased mass on the main bearing.


Edited by analogsurviver - 3/19/13 at 5:39am
post #1109 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Yes and no. There are TTs specifically made with threaded spindles and proprietary clamps. But in case that normal spindle is not too short, a clamp that grabs on the normal unthreaded spindle and can be tightened with a screw within the clamp itself can be used to the same effect. 

 

Rim weights are effective - to a point. Drawback is that they have to be meticioulously positioned ( manufacturers usually provide centreing devices to go along such a rim ring weight ) - you do not want say a half or more kg mass to unbalance your platter.

 

Both clamps/weights and rim weights can be replaced with vacuum suction stabilizers - either add-ons or integral to the TT design.

 

A motor in a DD generally has enough torque to maintain correct speed with the additional weight. SL1200 can handle AT666EX vacumm stabilizer ( approx 1400 gram ) without problems ( and VTA can - just - be raised enough to allow for the 9.5 mm thick "mat"). No idea on the long term effects of the increased mass on the main bearing.

Bolded part, how much do they usually cost? And if  their prices vary so much, why?

post #1110 of 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by penmarker View Post

Bolded part, how much do they usually cost? And if  their prices vary so much, why?

The part on the clamp that grabs on normal unthreaded spindle has to be made very precisely if it is to have enough grip and reasonable long service life.

It usually has very little spindle to grab on and in most cases. that will be only about a mm or so of flat section of the spindle that can be grabbed on.

 

Otherwise, record clamps and weights are something comparable to shoes for women. You can get any degree of "jewelry" packed into record clamp or weight - from exotic woods to various treatments to overprcision engineering to sexy packaging ... you get the picture. Not saying that any, all or combination of mentioned do not provide sonic benefit(s) - but choosing an cost effective solution in the plethora of supply is hard. Just search for "record clamp" on ebay , put as filter highest price first - and you will get

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Combak-Harmonix-TU-812-tuning-record-clamp-TU-800-turntable-mat-Rare-/171003710923?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item27d09d8dcb

 

followed by http://www.ebay.de/itm/STILLPOINTS-LPI-RECORD-CLAMP-FOR-SME-GARRARD-TECHNICS-THORENS-ORACLE-/150869064341?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item23207f3a95

 

followed by http://www.ebay.de/itm/ORB-Hi-end-HP-SS-Record-Stabilizer-Clamp-/390559089022?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5aef22c17e

 

etc etc . The most reasonable expensive one seems this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/simplyphysics-DF2-differential-fusion-ultra-groove-contact-locking-record-clamp-/320952698268?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item4aba45859c 

 

and the most reasonable bang for buck probably this one http://www.ebay.de/itm/KAB-Super-Record-Grip-Record-clamp-Bubble-level-/390559693335?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5aef2bfa17

 

or the soft approach http://www.ebay.de/itm/SRM-Tech-The-Revolution-Record-Clamp-/181059922469?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Performance_DJ_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a28032a25

 

I would like to hear from users of any clamps mentioned - particularly the last two, as they may prove the most realistic to consider to majority. Remember, a clamp or weight has to work with conjunction with the TT used - you can not plunk an additional  2 kg weight on any suspended chassis deck, no matter how beneficial for sound you might have found it on some high mass behemoth.

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