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[GUIDE] How To Properly Dampen Your Beyerdynamic T1 - Page 12

post #166 of 208

I cut out some of the felt under the driver and now I think I'll be happy for another couple of days wink.gif

 

What I have now is approximately 40 % of a circle in the back of the headphone, and then a rounded square of felt right under the driver (pretty much what some other people have been doing in this thread with various materials). This works much better with the 2 mm felt I have - a much better balance between smoothness and air.

post #167 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT View Post

I am not sure if anyone tried it yet but as you've found it too warm even with the thinnest felt you can find, may be self adhesive 2mm creatology foam would work better, just an idea as this is what Anaxilus mod is using for HD800, in v2 they also throw rug liner on the top, another thing to think about if foam is still too much.

 

Great suggestion. This mod is so easy - trying different materials should be a lot of fun.

post #168 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh7000 View Post

I performed this mod last night, and it *may* have tamed the treble on some songs. To my ear, this was a minor change in sound and without having a 2nd pair of headphones to directly A/B, I would be hard pressed to tell you anything has changed with my T1.

 

I listened to my T1s for a good 3 hours last night after the mod, and every song I tried sounded really good, so I would say that the mod didn't negatively affect my headphones at all, and it probably helped some (I would really need a 2nd pair of T1s to verify though). I used 1/16" felt that Andrew_WOT had recommended above.


I just got a 2nd pair of T1s, I will do a compare between no-mod and modded in the next few days to see if I can tell a difference. I really like the T1, and I am most likely going to have identical setups at home and work (then hopefully I will stop coming to this site looking at more reviews.... )

post #169 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh7000 View Post


I just got a 2nd pair of T1s, I will do a compare between no-mod and modded in the next few days to see if I can tell a difference. I really like the T1, and I am most likely going to have identical setups at home and work (then hopefully I will stop coming to this site looking at more reviews.... )

 

Would love to hear impressions. Also, did the two T1s sound the same before modding?

post #170 of 208

Would love to hear how many people are still using T1 with extra dampening and what particular configuration (thickness, shape, material) of the mod they ended up with.

post #171 of 208

Just got T1s and have enjoyed reading this whole thread.

 

I think they are a fantastic headphone, but completely understand the desire for tamed highs.

 

I have some adhesive spongy foam which is firm, but still squishy. It's normally used for damping vibration in car audio installations (i.e. around components). Do you think this might work?

post #172 of 208

Do you think there's any loss of transparency and detail retrieval as a result of this mod or does it simply tame the treble while leaving everything else intact?

post #173 of 208
removed

Edited by Cristello - 9/5/13 at 10:08am
post #174 of 208

Thanks to all the comments on this thread I finally gave the mod a go today with some felt.

 

I think I like the results, but I'm having a hard time trying to work out if the mod has detracted anything from the sound.

 

I used a small piece of very thin felt under the driver and a 1/2 ring of slightly thicker felt in front of the driver. I used a 1/3 ring in the front first, but it didn't do a lot so I then went for the 1/2 ring and I like the results in general - very smooth and rich, but still great detail and separation.

 

Because it's hard to A/B I'm having a hard time working out if there's some resolution or detail lost as a result of the mod. For those who reverted from the mod to normal, what are your thoughts?

post #175 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loquah View Post

Thanks to all the comments on this thread I finally gave the mod a go today with some felt.

 

I think I like the results, but I'm having a hard time trying to work out if the mod has detracted anything from the sound.

 

I used a small piece of very thin felt under the driver and a 1/2 ring of slightly thicker felt in front of the driver. I used a 1/3 ring in the front first, but it didn't do a lot so I then went for the 1/2 ring and I like the results in general - very smooth and rich, but still great detail and separation.

 

Because it's hard to A/B I'm having a hard time working out if there's some resolution or detail lost as a result of the mod. For those who reverted from the mod to normal, what are your thoughts?

 

I decided to stop being lazy and reverse the mod myself to check if my hunch was correct and I can confirm definitively that the mod DOES remove some micro-detail and spatial cues from the T1s - they lose a fraction of their magic,

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do the mod because it does create a beautiful, lush headphone that oozes creamy mids and still heaps of detail - like HD650s on steroids (i.e. not as laidback, but still super comfy to listen too and with plenty of detail and resolution). For me though, I bought the T1s to be different from the HD650s and to be the super-transparent and revealing can they're designed to be.

 

I think the reason there is no damping in the cup might be to allow the transparency and imaging that makes the T1 special. As someone said in an earlier post, if 20 cents worth of felt would improve the headphone Beyer would have built it in (especially when they damp so many of their other models).

 

To my ears, the sound with the mod is great, but the sound without the mod is exceptional (when paired with the right sources)

 

Again, not saying the mod is bad, just providing an alternate opinion. The best thing is that it's cheap, easy and reversible so try it for yourself and see what you think...


Edited by Loquah - 8/17/13 at 1:03am
post #176 of 208

removed


Edited by Cristello - 9/5/13 at 10:09am
post #177 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristello View Post

Because the mod is so easy, I invite you to please consider going back to the mod for extended periods of time (maybe weeks) to provide any updates as to what you think. I would hate for any individual to miss out because of such quick judgements. If you don't change your mind, I would certainly respect your right to your own opinion, and would think of you no less, my friend. Further description of what you are experiencing would be much appreciated!

 

Thanks for the info Cristello, but I'm confused now. If those things on the graph are signs of instability and imperfect design, why do all headphones still seem to have them (even at flagship grades)?

 

By the way, I'm not arguing here, but trying to understand as this part of the head-fi world is an area I have no real knowledge in yet.

 

Judging by this graph, the T1s fair no worse (and perhaps better) than the LCD2s and HD800s. I also included the DT880 600ohm as a comparison with a headphone I know to be well damped, albeit at a different quality level.

 

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=4&graphID[]=2033&graphID[]=3221&graphID[]=2751&graphID[]=863&scale=30

 

Unfortunately, the graph on Headroom for THD is different and doesn't show the same spike in the T1s, but it does show those same set of headphones from above to all have very similar distortion levels. The T1s show more high frequency distortion, but it's all pretty minimal.

 

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=4&graphID[]=2033&graphID[]=3221&graphID[]=2751&graphID[]=863&scale=30

 

So, with all this in mind, can we be sure that the stock T1 sound is actually flawed in comparison to their sound with some felt in there?

 

I'm happy to try again and maybe use only the thin felt in front and behind the back of the driver to see if it leaves them sounding more free, but I'd also appreciate any input from people with more knowledge (than my none) on the damping and airflow properties of headphones.

post #178 of 208

I've redone the mod using the thinner, grey felt as pictured below. The first time around I used a small grey square below the driver and a half ring of the black felt in front of the driver. Same configurations this time (small square and half ring), but all in the grey felt.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, after I completed the first earcup, I went to listen to the difference between the modded and unmodded side, only I forgot to check which side I modded. I had the headphones on with one side modded and the other unmodded (not knowing which was which) and I immediately noticed I was enjoying the left much more than the right. The left side seemed to have richer midrange detail and impact / speed. I assumed that the mod had worked given that I was enjoying improved mids (more-so than any variation in the highs).

 

I went back to mod the other side (right side) only to discover that it was already done!! The mids had been better on the un-modded cup!?

 

I'll keep listening and I look forward to having my mind changed, but so far no matter how much I want the mod to work, it's just not sounding better to my ears. Keep in mind too that I am coming from HD650s because I generally don't like harsh / sibilant headphones so I should prefer the modded version based on my past preferences.

 

There's no doubt that the modified sound is warmer and perhaps a little less prone to sibilance, but it also seems less alive and dynamic. I feel like I'm listening to everything from a pair of speakers in an overly padded room rather than the "live" feel that I enjoyed pre-mod. I can't help but feel like headphones are being restricted somehow.

 

I've also done a little further research into the wavelengths of 8-9kHz sound (the treble peak of the T1) and the wavelengths are from 4.3 - 3.8cm in length. With that in mind, I wonder if the design of the T1 earcup and the angle of the driver could actually create standing waves (and therefore natural amplification) in this frequency range? Judging by the asymmetry created by the position and angle of the driver, I am not sure that the spike is a result of the cup and lack of damping so much as the properties of the driver. If that's the case, then the damping we're adding is more likely to be effecting other frequencies than the ones required and may be having unwanted effects.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and knowledge on this topic.

post #179 of 208

removed


Edited by Cristello - 9/5/13 at 10:09am
post #180 of 208

Comments through quote below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristello View Post

Headroom's graphs are often taken using different settings and tests than Innerfidelity's, and as such do not always show every possibility. Be wary of any attempt to compare them directly with one another. [See Jude's post in his signature on measurements] 

(Personally, I trust Innerfidelity more...  Tyll (the headmaster) takes the aggregate average of slightly different cranial positions, and has carefully selected his charts in such a way to present the most relevant information in the smallest amount of space.) Interesting that in the post you directed me to (thank you for the link) there are actually some questions around the validity of head dummies like the one used by Tyll - not saying Tyll's method is wrong, but it's so hard to get any definitive information from measurements, especially given that every person's physiology also varies.

 

Addressing your primary concerns...

You are correct that even "flagship" headphones are in various ways imperfect. The general idea is this: the closer you get towards perfection, the more you might be expected to pay. Indeed, If one were to compare most of the top models alongside each other, the differences would be much smaller than at the bottom (and for good reason). However, just because some graphs look similar does not mean the headphones sound identicalAgree.

 

By the way, the DT880 is an excellent example of what proper damping can do for a pair of headphones. Compare the difference between the T1 and the 880 in the Innerfidelity database [T1] [DT880] for a moment... Analyzing the 30Hz Square Wave and lower-end of the Frequency Response indicates that the T1 has both better extension and tighter bass [less bowing inward] (as it should). The T1 also has less distortion on the low-end and better power handling [tested from 90dB to 100dB, important for when music is very dynamic]. The conclusion from these observations is that the T1 is authoritatively better at reproducing bass than the DT880... However, things change when one takes a look at the upper end of the spectrum. Here, the DT880 has lower distortion (sans the upper-mids spike) and a cleaner portrayal of a 300Hz harmonic series [fewer deviations from square]. The T1 still likely has an edge in imaging, due to its angled drivers (something the 880 lacks), but has much potential untapped for increasing the SNR within that range. Adding damping to the T1 similar in nature to the DT880 could theoretically get you the best of both worlds: an even faster driver that is just as clean (more or less) with better imaging and bass. I hadn't looked at these charts before in significant detail and am amazed at the "technical" performance of the DT880, especially given that I find their sound to be a bit dull and lifeless - not bad, but also not exciting and engaging - I prefer the HD650s which technically may not perform quite as well according to the 300Hz charts.

 

Unfortunately, unless someone were to measure a pair with the mods installed on the same measurement system using the same testing routine, we can't be absolutely sure what else the mods might do. If the mod does take something away while providing other improvements, it is possible that an individual could prefer the stock presentation (It all simply depends on what one considers most sonically important). Agree and is why I'd love some other opinions from those who've modded and reversed. It'd be brilliant if anyone with measuring equipment could actually measure the impact of the mods.

 

P.S. -- are you making sure to leave the external grill exposed? Cut holes in the felt to avoid any chance of that "constriction" or lack of "lively-ness". Reducing airflow that way would surely "deaden" the sound. (or at least change the driver response in strange ways) Yes - the felt I've installed covers solid plastic sections only.

 

P.P.S. -- I'm not sure a square below the driver is something someone here has tried explicitly. Using two half rings like in the first post of the thread might work better. Based on the posts I read (particularly this one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/612796/guide-how-to-properly-dampen-your-beyerdynamic-t1/30#post_8434251) I understood this to be an optimal solution for most people. I think I'll try removing each piece individually (i.e. the square and the half ring) to see what impact they each have on their own.

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