Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › Best closed headphones?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Best closed headphones? - Page 2

post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimLaroux View Post

Lower impedance means you mean more current to control the diaphragm. Higher impedance means you need more voltage to control the diaphragm.

 

But I had read something like "more/better control [of the diaphragm, but I'm not sure] for the higher impedance headphones" and that day, came to the conclusion Beyerdynamic made their flagship a 600 ohms headphone for that reason.

 

Although I now think I shouldn't have embarked myself on a subject I'm so ignorant about, lol. Sorry for not having anything productive to add, and for skidding on the topic.

post #17 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by arvbuddy View Post

Thanks, but they've already come out with successors to those headphones.

Doesn't matter. This isn't like computer hardware - newer is not always better (fortunately for us). The T70 (the replacement for the DT770) is very bass light, hard to get a good seal on (and when you can't, there's zero response below ~200hz), and incredibly harsh with lots of electronic music. It also costs three-four times as much because Beyerdynamic is leading the charge (teehee) towards getting you to spend more for less. Based on the T70, I wouldn't even bother with the T5 (that, and when Tyll calls something "an abomination of harshness" I tend to pay attention). It's built very well though, and comes with a nice case (that you can buy for $30 direct from Beyer).

DT770 is a good suggestion for what you want. The Denon models provide no isolation, and are too fragile for true portable use; especially the D5000. Really depends on how "portable" we're talking about. Ultrasone offers bassier headphones that are built like a brick. But they cost more, and if S-LOGIC doesn't work for your HRTF, they will sound very alien. Try the DT770 or the Pro900 (or one of the less expensive Ultrasones, like the DJ1Pro). Musical enjoyment does not have to cost thousands of dollars (as a great man once said: the point of diminishing returns is in the thousands, not the billions!). Especially for portable use.

Finally, just to throw it out there (since you did say portable, and I see this so-often overlooked for portable use): have you considered IEMs of some sort? The money you're looking to drop could translate into custom-fitted units (which I've never personally had made, but I understand their advantages for providing isolation and comfort), or very good universal-fit units (which cost about a tenth of what you're looking to spend) that will conveniently drive from any portable device you've likely got. The (substantially better) isolation abilities of your generic Ety/UE/etc coupled with the generally great bass response of many IEMs could absolutely get you where you want to go, in a more easily transported package, that doesn't require substantial additional amplification, and likely won't shout "hey, come mug me!" like a Pro900 or D5000 would. IME, in-ears are the way to go for mobile use, or any high-noise environment for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

But I had read something like "more/better control [of the diaphragm, but I'm not sure] for the higher impedance headphones" and that day, came to the conclusion Beyerdynamic made their flagship a 600 ohms headphone for that reason.

Although I now think I shouldn't have embarked myself on a subject I'm so ignorant about, lol. Sorry for not having anything productive to add, and for skidding on the topic.

Beyerdynamic aside, impedance (when people stop saying "ohm rating" I will be truly happy) means nothing for actual performance. Ohm's Law dictates how voltage, current, and power will relate to one another based on resistance (measured in Ohms) - impedance is the complex AC resistance of a system (it varies wrt frequency).

In determining amplification requirements, impedance and sensitive must be considered. While you cannot arbitrarily have "lots of volts" or "lots of current" (something that people seem to prescribe - I'm not saying anyone has done that here, but it's usually something that comes up in such discussions ("oh get an amplifier that can provide a s*tlot of current to clean up the bass")), you can have a situation where a load demands more power at a given output level based on it's impedance (and Ohm's Law). This can result in the amplifier going into clipping (or blowing up). In other situations you can have a load that is too reactive or too resistive for an amplifier to drive in a linear manner.

An extreme (but not unrealistic, unfortunately) example from a Rod Elliot article creates a hypothetical 100W/8ohm (28V out) amplifier, and hooks it up to a speaker that has an impedance dip to 1 ohm. The power demand placed on the amplifier at that load is around 650W (after cable loss) - that's impossible for this amplifier, obviously. That's a problem. With headphones, this is usually less serious, because power demands are usually minuscule, and even with highly inefficient SET Class A designs, a few watts is not inaccessible. Additionally, headphones are generally not this poorly designed (they don't have a crossover to screw things up, and many of them measure fairly flat). Usually what you see instead of extreme impedance drops, are large humps where resonance or other nasties are encountered - the Sennheiser HD 600 is a prime example of this. Where impedance comes into play there is how the amplifier's voltage drive abilities can hold up to a fairly large up-ward swing in impedance (which also happens to be at a lower frequency, which is where more power is demanded on average); if the amplifier cannot provide the voltage needed for the desired output power, it will limit. Additionally, the inter-relationship between the Zout on the amplifier and this impedance can (and does) change the FR of the system by attenuating things in a non-even manner. This is "coloration."

Usually this is not a huge problem though - most headphones need far less than 1 mW of continuous input power to reach substantial output levels. So as long as the amplifier can provide that 1 mW into a range of loads, it will work (and we don't have to do any deeper digging). For example, the Creek OBH-11 specifies 10 mW into 30 to 300 ohms; I have no idea if that's verified, but if we just assume it works, it would be able to satisfy the swings produced by something like the HD 600 as long as your (acoustic) output requirements don't exceed what 10 mW can provide. Given that the HD 600 is somewhere around 97 dB/mW, 10 mW should be quite sufficient (figure you will never listen at 97 dB nominally, because it's dreadful, so chop that figure down by 20 dB to .1 mW and you've got a massive amount of dynamic range left-over).

You can scale this example to anything you like, such as the T1. You just have to know the impedance response of the system and what the amplifier can do. This does not define or explain the universe or all differences between amplifiers, mind you.

Now, in terms of "higher impedance for more control" - Beyerdynamic specifically makes this claim (or I should say, I have heard this claim associated with the DT line) regarding their various impedance offerings. There's not really any other model out there that has multiple versions of the same driver or system at different nominal impedances, so it's hard to make generalizations beyond what we can witness with Beyerdynamic. Throwing series resistors in-line with something else, like an AT or Grado, will just attenuate the entire system. If the load is relatively reactive, the attenuation will be non-linear and you can fairly dramatically change the sound depending on how much resistance you put in (and remember, if you put too much resistance in, you'll cause the amplifier trouble - you're asking it for much more voltage to drive the same load (so don't be a yum-yum and stick a 10meg in there!); also figure the power dissipation and pick an appropriate resistor if you want to try this). The only validity I can source for the claim overall though, is that higher impedance headsets generally reject noise better and can interact with higher Zout sources with better success (e.g. there's a reason you don't plug IEMs into a big OTL).

In the case of Beyerdynamic specifically, I think the reasoning is more along the lines of the equipment they target those devices for. Their marketing literature promotes the 32 ohm units for mobile use, things like iPhones, that have a limited Vp-p and may choke if you ask them to drive a high output level from something with a relatively high Z (Because it wants more voltage than they can deliver - nevermind that some users report mobile devices lack the current drive for those cans!). The 600 ohm units are marked for home hi-fi systems, which usually derive their headphone output through a resistive network tapped onto a large power amp (that probably has a fairly low Zsource to start with, but it's driven up through the sky to protect the hp's). These devices can usually swing more than enough voltage though, so producing a headset that will play nicer with them is a logical conclusion.

If you have an hour or two to kill, PM me, and I'll dump some links on you.
Edited by obobskivich - 5/27/12 at 2:40am
post #18 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by zazex View Post

Well, to start, ohm ratings have absolutely nothing to do with the intrinsic quality of a product.

 

An ohm is just a measurement, like an inch or a liter.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

Fostex TH900.

 

D7000 is also superb, but when cost-no-object, TH900 is superior, by a hearable margin.

 

Closed headphone is a bit of a weird market though... D2-5-7k and TH900 are not the most closed headphones around even though they fall in this category. If you want more noise isolation I would suggest Ultrasone Signature Pro.

 

 

 

I've read somewhere that higher impedance was better, that it gave better control of the diaphragm's overall mass and movements... I don't know if that make sense but I'm really only vaguely remembering what I had read about it.

 

Higher impedance is less practical to me... and headphones needs to be practical in my book.

 

But I would dissent and definitely say that it's related to intrinsic quality, and sound quality too.

 

What do you mean "ohm is just a measurement"? Measurements, and the units they're in, makes all the difference in our daily lives, lol. I mean, we build bridges with measurements. I think they are super important. You don't want a headphone that is 2 millimeters tall either, lol, but I'm joking 

 

A low impedance headphone can be a "better" product than a high impedance headphone.

And vice-versa.

That's all I meant.

 

What's caused the dissent, is that you seem to think I wrote 

"Everything else being equal, impedance is irrelevant to sound quality."

 

But that's not what I originally wrote, nor would I.

 

 

And an ohm is, in fact, a measurement.

You seem somehow offended that I wrote it's "just" a measurement.

But I didn't intend to thereby denigrate the importance of measurements.

post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by zazex View Post

A low impedance headphone can be a "better" product than a high impedance headphone.
And vice-versa.

+1.
post #20 of 36

Ultrasone Pro900

 

/thread

 

basshead.gif

 

PS:  I could romanticize with all sorts of colorful adjectives and tell you a story that will sing to your ears, but describing the intrinsic in music is like asking someone to describe the color red.  Ultrasone PRO900s are god's gift to Trance and Dubstep.


Edited by Coupe - 5/27/12 at 12:01pm
post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by zazex View Post

A low impedance headphone can be a "better" product than a high impedance headphone.

And vice-versa.

That's all I meant.

 

What's caused the dissent, is that you seem to think I wrote 

"Everything else being equal, impedance is irrelevant to sound quality."

 

But that's not what I originally wrote, nor would I.

 

And an ohm is, in fact, a measurement.

You seem somehow offended that I wrote it's "just" a measurement.

But I didn't intend to thereby denigrate the importance of measurements.

 

Not really offended, but yes, I consider the use of "just" in "just a measurement" to be derogatory in this case.

 

Isn't that all of you are implying? "Everything else being equal, impedance is irrelevant to sound quality.", "Everything" including amp-matching so that both are equally well driven?

 

"A low impedance headphone can be a "better" product than a high impedance headphone.

And vice-versa.
That's all I meant." I have re-read your (*edit: oops) first post many times trying to give it more meaning myself, I guess that was my mistake. It's obvious to me that high impedance means nothing if the headphone is crappy, even more if that high impedance is an obstacle caused by the crappiness.

 

I'm also quoting obobskivich.

 

Isn't a 600 ohm headphone well driven generally better sounding (or superior specs-wise) than an equally well driven 32 ohm headphone? I know the headphones are completely different and sound different but isn't there a rule to predict which is best?

 

Although, I understand after reading obobskivich uber awesome contribution to this thread that people might buy the 300 and 600 ohm versions of a headphone to use it, only because their system has the power to drive them (so it wouldn't be a matter of SQ anymore). In the same way someone would buy a 32 ohm because that's all that is compatible with his portable media player. So high impedance exist because power amps exist to carry such loads?

 

What about higher impedance headphones which are the ones to have the highest possible dampening ratio? Doesn't that make them inherently, quantitatively better? when you divide the impedance of the phone vs that of the output, and it should be around 8 or 10 or the most is the better?


Edited by devouringone3 - 5/29/12 at 10:32pm
post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

Isn't a 600 ohm headphone well driven generally better sounding (or superior specs-wise) than an equally well driven 32 ohm headphone? I know the headphones are completely different and sound different but isn't there a rule to predict which is best?

No, not really. The only case where this argument can hold up is with the Beyer DT line; otherwise you're changing WAY too many variables in order to make the case. For example, is a Sennheiser HD 800 superior to a Grado PS-1000 in all ways no matter what? Is the T1 better than both of those? etc.

Impedance is just one variable that we can look at when describing a device's characteristics. It's like saying "oh I have a 10 liter engine!" - okay, so that's one piece of information, but it makes a lot of difference if that engine is mounted to a motorcycle (http://www.duccutters.com/Dodge-Tomahawk/DodgeTomahawk01.jpg) or found in a bus (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/MTA_New_York_City_Bus_New_Flyer_C40LF_988.jpg). Are they inherently equal in performance and abilities?
Quote:
Although, I understand after reading obobskivich uber awesome contribution to this thread that people might buy the 300 and 600 ohm versions of a headphone to use it, only because their system has the power to drive them (so it wouldn't be a matter of SQ anymore). In the same way someone would buy a 32 ohm because that's all that is compatible with his portable media player. So high impedance exist because power amps exist to carry such loads?

It's a function of the driver design. I think that for most headphones it's not something that the designers obsess too much about unless they're trying to design something for mobile users (like the Beats headphones). The Beyer DT line has the higher impedance loads to make them more compatible with hi-fi equipment, at least that's what I would think. But again, let's use Grado and Audio-Technica as examples. Neither makes a headphone that exceeds 64 ohms, so by the logic of impedance dictating quality, shouldn't that mean an HD 595 is better than all of their products collectively?
Quote:
What about higher impedance headphones which are the ones to have the highest possible dampening ratio? Doesn't that make them inherently, quantitatively better? when you divide the impedance of the phone vs that of the output, and it should be around 8 or 10 or the most is the better?

Damping Factor is a somewhat contentious issue. If we ignore that for the most part it's largely irrelevant to headphones, it's also largely a machination of the over-active imaginations of marketing types. This isn't to say that you should run kicking and screaming away from (or towards) amplifiers with a high overall DF. More correctly, it's just a spec that usually isn't provided completely so it has to be discarded due to a lack of information. Regarding the influence on the sound quality - you don't need a higher impedance 'phone to have a high overall DF within the system. You just need a low Zout relative to the load (and ultimately what you're preventing is not a "lack of control" over the driver, but instead a lack of non-even attenuation of the FR). Again, apart from the Beyer DT line, there's not much that we can draw as a generalization for all speakers or all headphones.
post #23 of 36

Thank you for your examples and clear explanation ;)

 

If we measure a driver under water, impedance would be a lot higher, right?

 

Wouldn't it provide it with a "tighter" impulse response? By immobilizing the diaphragm, holding it in place and cancelling out the (post-impulse) rebounds (diminishing greatly their amplitude)?

post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

If we measure a driver under water, impedance would be a lot higher, right?

Arcs and sparks. No more amp, no more driver, etc.
post #25 of 36

Hi seems like you said that you are going to use it at school, so I assume you would prefer portable phone. And are you going to use some amplifier or some sort ? or you wanna use it from Ipod ? From your reply It also seem you quite like bass

I'm not sure about this but In My Opinion spending money over 1k $ + over a phone for portable use is kinda ..... overkill .... you won't get the best of them, especially at school  .... what a waste ... Most of 1k phone is not really focused in bass quantity as well. In addition when you decide you want to use portable amp( most 1k+ phone needs them), consider again the extra weight, I used to use portable amp at school and it really is a hassle ... Also, consider your risk of losing them, I dunno how rich you are but I used to carry esw10jpn which is about 500$ and I just feel so insecure, and 500 bucks for a college student is a lot, I have to eat instant noodles everyday for a month to get it... it's really not worth it man ...

 

anyway here's my phone suggestion, it's all below 500$ and are Portable so ignore it if you really want to spend more than those amount of money and doesn't mind going full size

 

For direct use from Ipod I can vouch for Denon A100, it's like Denon D1100 but in better housing, and look very beautiful, quite bassy not in very high quantity but sufficient for me ... I'm not really sure about t5p, they are kinda big for portable, and not really bass monster ... If you want bass monster maybe get Sony XB1000, but it's kinda big, or those Ultrasone mentioned or maybe Audio Technica pro700 mk2 or Audio Technica es10. I think es10 works very well for your genre though es10 is kinda overpriced but since you have no budget I think it's worth it .... for portables I think this is as good as it get ...


Edited by Squirelrepublic - 5/27/12 at 9:26pm
post #26 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirelrepublic View Post

Hi seems like you said that you are going to use it at school, so I assume you would prefer portable phone. And are you going to use some amplifier or some sort ? or you wanna use it from Ipod ? From your reply It also seem you quite like bass

I'm not sure about this but In My Opinion spending money over 1k $ + over a phone for portable use is kinda ..... overkill .... you won't get the best of them, especially at school  .... what a waste ... Most of 1k phone is not really focused in bass quantity as well. In addition when you decide you want to use portable amp( most 1k+ phone needs them), consider again the extra weight, I used to use portable amp at school and it really is a hassle ... Also, consider your risk of losing them, I dunno how rich you are but I used to carry esw10jpn which is about 500$ and I just feel so insecure, and 500 bucks for a college student is a lot, I have to eat instant noodles everyday for a month to get it... it's really not worth it man ...

 

anyway here's my phone suggestion, it's all below 500$ and are Portable so ignore it if you really want to spend more than those amount of money and doesn't mind going full size

 

For direct use from Ipod I can vouch for Denon A100, it's like Denon D1100 but in better housing, and look very beautiful, quite bassy not in very high quantity but sufficient for me ... I'm not really sure about t5p, they are kinda big for portable, and not really bass monster ... If you want bass monster maybe get Sony XB1000, but it's kinda big, or those Ultrasone mentioned or maybe Audio Technica pro700 mk2 or Audio Technica es10. I think es10 works very well for your genre though es10 is kinda overpriced but since you have no budget I think it's worth it .... for portables I think this is as good as it get ...

Well I decided that what I really want is high quality. I decided that I'm just going to have to give in and get some for home use instead. I don't want to spend $1300 on something like t5p when a $600 open headphone has same quality, that's kind of bogus. SO I am now looking at open headphones. I'm not rich, I work hard for my money to get these headphones over several months. Also the headphones never leave my neck and I'm kind of a HUGE guy so nobody ever really messes with me

post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

 

Not really offended, but yes, I consider the use of "just" in "just a measurement" to be derogatory in this case.

 

Isn't that all of you are implying? "Everything else being equal, impedance is irrelevant to sound quality.", "Everything" including amp-matching so that both are equally well driven?

 

"A low impedance headphone can be a "better" product than a high impedance headphone.

And vice-versa.
That's all I meant." I have re-read your post many times trying to give it more meaning myself, I guess that was my mistake. It's obvious to me that high impedance means nothing if the headphone is crappy, even more if that high impedance is an obstacle caused by the crappiness.

 

I'm also quoting obobskivich.

 

Isn't a 600 ohm headphone well driven generally better sounding (or superior specs-wise) than an equally well driven 32 ohm headphone? I know the headphones are completely different and sound different but isn't there a rule to predict which is best?

 

Although, I understand after reading obobskivich uber awesome contribution to this thread that people might buy the 300 and 600 ohm versions of a headphone to use it, only because their system has the power to drive them (so it wouldn't be a matter of SQ anymore). In the same way someone would buy a 32 ohm because that's all that is compatible with his portable media player. So high impedance exist because power amps exist to carry such loads?

 

What about higher impedance headphones which are the ones to have the highest possible dampening ratio? Doesn't that make them inherently, quantitatively better? when you divide the impedance of the phone vs that of the output, and it should be around 8 or 10 or the most is the better?

 

I thought the statement I posted was pretty simple.

 

Phrased differently, my point is -

Just because a headphone is low impedance doesn't mean it's better than a headphone that's high impedance.

And,

just because a headphone is high impedance doesn't mean it's better than a headphone that's low impedance.

post #28 of 36

Seriously, for your genre, get some PRO900s.  You will not be disappointed.


Edited by Coupe - 5/27/12 at 11:46pm
post #29 of 36

I donno, I use the Ed8 as a portable and it is about my best home headphone too.  Considered by many to be the best closed headphone for the past several years and that way you get both-doesn't have to be huge or closed.  It is also forgiving on amplification unlike say my HD800 which i use with an amp which was well upward of 2K.

post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by zazex View Post

 

I thought the statement I posted was pretty simple.

 

Phrased differently, my point is -

Just because a headphone is low impedance doesn't mean it's better than a headphone that's high impedance.

And, just because a headphone is high impedance doesn't mean it's better than a headphone that's low impedance.

 

No need to repeat louder what you already said clearly, I'm not deaf.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

If we measure a driver under water, impedance would be a lot higher, right?
Arcs and sparks. No more amp, no more driver, etc.
 
But in an ideal situation with a headphone that can play in both air and water? Impedance at 1 kHz would go from 32 ohm to 32 mega-ohm, right?

Edited by devouringone3 - 5/28/12 at 4:18am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Headphones (full-size)
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › Best closed headphones?