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Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 20

post #286 of 353

Well, two days, four different measurement sessions at four different locations later, we are finally done with the whirlwind PRIR tour.

 

As you may have seen earlier, Kiritz and Jand flew to San Diego/LA to visit some of my favorite systems so they could do measurements. We had a great time and a very full schedule. Jand actually went to AIX first and then came down to San Diego to join us.

 

So the net result is that there are some new PRIR's in my folders. There is nothing new, per se, but I think now that I am more experienced, my measurements are better.

 

Also, you now have the opportunity to try three different "ear shapes" from the same audio system to see if one person's ears match better with yours.

 

The systems in the "Darinf" folders that have been updated are:

 

  • Jan Montana 2.1 System V2
  • Cello 2.0 System Version 3
  • Acoustic Zen 2.0 System
  • Audio Revelation 2.0 System

 

Just use the most recent files. I left the older measurements in there too if you want to compare.

 

Overall, I think the best ones are Audio Revelation and Acoustic Zen.

 

Let me know what you think,

 

-Darin

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #287 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivierLA75 View Post

thanks for your answer Darin :)

 

1) that's kind of a bad news considering that i have spent more than 100k$ in my K-system... what do you think if i was getting a pre-amp like the integra 80.3 and use it to decode the signal then go to the realizer using the analog inputs and then analog output to the DAC. do you think that would work well? or the sound quality will not be as good as using the digital inputs/outputs the whole way? and in case going with analog was ok do you know if there are easier solution than buying such a big device as this Integra preamp?

2) noted

3) THANK YOU

4) ok

5) i'll be looking at the other threads, thanks

 

best,

Olivier

1) Wow $100K really? Can the K-Server be accessed by any other device or can it only be accessed via the K players? If it's a proprietary system, then you don't have many options I am afraid. Yes, you can decode and go into the Realiser analog. You would have to do some tests to see how much of a difference in quality there is between the analog or HDMI input. You could test it with your K Player. Just output down-mixed 2 channel audio via HDMI to the Realiser and then also connect the analog audio output of the K player to the analog input of the Realiser. Then compare the sound and see if you can hear a difference. If you can't hear a difference with 2 channel, then 8 channel should be OK too. There may be other cheaper AV preamps or receivers that can output analog. Most home theater receivers will not decode surround and output as multi-channel LPCM. However, if you find one, that would be another way to do it. I am just not aware of any.

post #288 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

Well, two days, four different measurement sessions at four different locations later, we are finally done with the whirlwind PRIR tour.


Yeah I think our ears are quite matching, maybe best by far. Acoustic Zen v2 especially sounds very clear with good localisation, similar to my Genelec ones. Only problem I found is a large peak around 180hz I think. Few tracks with bass specifically there are extremely honky. Probably impossible to find a 100% match.

post #289 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post


Yeah I think our ears are quite matching, maybe best by far. Acoustic Zen v2 especially sounds very clear with good localisation, similar to my Genelec ones. Only problem I found is a large peak around 180hz I think. Few tracks with bass specifically there are extremely honky. Probably impossible to find a 100% match.

 

I just want to thank Darin publicly for his facilitating our "whirlwind tour."  He is truly expert at doing measurements and very generous with his time and energy.  

 

It was clear to me, after doing all these measurements, why there are major limitations to the wide adoption of the Realiser by audiophiles, let alone more normal people.  It is very hard to get all the variables set up properly.  Each time you insert the mikes in your ears the results will be somewhat, or even quite a bit different.  Then there is the issue of matching volumes and angles.  Finally, the acoustics of the room has a major effect, not always obvious or predictable.  Every parameter has a significant effect on the outcome.  So maybe this is why Smyth is so much more focused on mastering engineers in controlled environments, rather than seeking more buyers in the consumer realm.  

 

As for the resultant PRIRs --- terrific!  Acoustic Zen and Audio Revelation are the stars for me.  Acoustic Zen has a wider sound stage.  Perhaps this is due to the fact that Robert, the manufacturer, had the speakers set up pretty far apart and the listening chair close in, with minimal toeing of the speakers.  The room also was much larger and more uniform than Audio Revelation.  With Acoustic Zen, localization of instruments in the soundstage, and soundstage depth are remarkable.  By the way, having listened to Darin's PRIR of the same site, it is excellent, but no match for one made via my own ears.  Another example of why you really need to get your personalized measurement to know the full potential of the Realiser.

 

The Audio Revelation setup consisted of Magico speakers in a smaller room in a condo.  There were some acoustics treatments in the room.  Listening to the speakers live was an outstanding experience.  As to the PRIR, for whatever reason, the sound stage is quite a bit truncated, at least compared to the Acoustic Zen.  However, the overall sonority is very good.  Magico beats the Zen on bass, to my ears.  Bass goes deeper and sounds tighter.  Zen is way superior for staging.  Nothing is perfect!

 

Darin's Cello system is also very good for some source material.  The room is quite live, and with many sources this creates the effect of listening in a very large empty auditorium.  With other recordings this effect is minimized and the sonority and sound stage are quite good.

 

Again, many thanks to Darin for making this happen, and to everyone else --- please try to find places with good rooms and systems where you can take your time and do several careful measurements of the same listening environment.  The end result will be much better than anything you can achieve listening to PRIRs made by someone else.

 

Stewart

post #290 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

 

I just want to thank Darin publicly for his facilitating our "whirlwind tour."  He is truly expert at doing measurements and very generous with his time and energy.  


Stewart

It was my pleasure. I always have fun doing PRIR measurements. Plus it's a learning experience every time. Something unexpected seems to happen regardless of how many times I do it.

 

(now if Lorr would just make me a Smyth Realiser dealer already, I could actually make some money doing this!)

post #291 of 353

What is everyone's favorite PRIRs of the moment?  I've still been listening to silverlight's Quad PRIR as the detail is fantastic, and I like it more than the PRIR I had made for myself.  It's hard to go back to the normal BHSE signal without the Realiser, as a standard headphone chain just sounds so flat in comparison.  The only thing that comes close is the HE6 + First Watt.  Are there any other active PRIRs that have comparable detail and clarity as silverlight's?

 

Very meticulous work darinf.  I wouldn't be surprised if you went into DIY speakers next!  It might be interesting if you talked to Lorr to share some of your market research.  I agree that Smyth seems to be neglecting the consumer segment.

post #292 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post

Are there any other active PRIRs that have comparable detail and clarity as silverlight's?

 

Perhaps bad wording, but isn't the detail and clarity still completely dependent on how compatible ones ears are? wink.gif

 

The quads sound interesting, but I've yet to find any PRIR other than my own that I'd actually use "seriously", there are always some little problems. Also I'm just a sucker for a clean flat studio sound (can you say Genelec?). I'm not sure yet what kind of "hifi" set I'd find interesting, haven't heard much of them in real life..

post #293 of 353

No, it hasn't made a difference based on my testing with other people PRIRs.  I've heard a few PRIRs where the location of the speakers seems off, likely because that person's ear measurements are very different from mine, but most PRIRs that just sound boomy and echoy coupled with a poor level of detail.  The detail, compared to a standard headphone chain, is like degrading from lossless to 128cbr MP3.  That's why I like silverlight's PRIR, since the detail comes through very cleanly, and compares well to normal headphone listening.

post #294 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post

 

Perhaps bad wording, but isn't the detail and clarity still completely dependent on how compatible ones ears are? wink.gif

 

The quads sound interesting, but I've yet to find any PRIR other than my own that I'd actually use "seriously", there are always some little problems. Also I'm just a sucker for a clean flat studio sound (can you say Genelec?). I'm not sure yet what kind of "hifi" set I'd find interesting, haven't heard much of them in real life..

I would agree.  Although I have been a proponent of experimenting with other people's PRIRs, for me there is no substitute for my own, assuming it is done with a great system and room.  An example: my own AIX PRIR is not that great to my ears, and Darinf's Acoustic Zen is much  more pleasing to me.  However, my own Acoustic Zen PRIR is several orders of magnitude better than one made for Darinf's ears.  I wish it were different.  Unfortunately, however, I fear that we must find great systems and rooms and those willing to let us take the time to do careful measurements to realize the full potential of the Realiser.

post #295 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

Unfortunately, however, I fear that we must find great systems and rooms and those willing to let us take the time to do careful measurements to realize the full potential of the Realiser.


Yeah, but it's only ones lazyness preventing the potential! wink.gif

 

You really have to live somewhere far to not find several studios, audio/media schools etc at driving distance. Not everyone likes the "studio sound" but atleast you should do a favor to yourself and make one great clean PRIR.

 

I know it might be uncomfortable for the less technical person who just wants someone to hold hands and make it for you. We should really write a simple tutorial with some tips and infos, I could even host some wiki. It's probably hard for potential or new users to read all the manual and these threads to understand everything.

post #296 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post


Yeah, but it's only ones lazyness preventing the potential! wink.gif

 

You really have to live somewhere far to not find several studios, audio/media schools etc at driving distance. Not everyone likes the "studio sound" but atleast you should do a favor to yourself and make one great clean PRIR.

 

I know it might be uncomfortable for the less technical person who just wants someone to hold hands and make it for you. We should really write a simple tutorial with some tips and infos, I could even host some wiki. It's probably hard for potential or new users to read all the manual and these threads to understand everything.

Yes, a user manual for the user manual would be very helpful.  It is pretty obscure in parts.  As for listening, I have PRIRs made at AIX and elsewhere.  Now I have one made with Crescendo speakers in a tuned listening room, and Magico's in another listening room.  To me the difference between the mixing room AIX experience and the new ones I made is huge.  So for audiophile music lovers, I would recommend a very high end dealer or home system as a basis for measurement.  These are a bit hard to get into.  For BluRay, I am guessing the AIX is just as good.

post #297 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post

 

I know it might be uncomfortable for the less technical person who just wants someone to hold hands and make it for you. We should really write a simple tutorial with some tips and infos, I could even host some wiki. It's probably hard for potential or new users to read all the manual and these threads to understand everything.

Feel free to include my tutorial in the Wiki if you set one up. http://www.head-fi.org/t/610920/smyth-svs-realiser-prir-exchange-thread/225#post_8753306

 

I'd be happy to help out with tutorials, and tips, etc.

 

-Darin

post #298 of 353

Hi community, hekeli and Realiser HDMI user

Sneaky problem using the HDMI port:

I replaced my faulty graka and with the new one comes a new problem:

Analyzing Jan Montanas v4 PRIR over analog Realiser inputs I recognized a low buzzing noise ... there was a difference between my three preferred PRIRs, one from "overseas", two of my own. Acoustic Zen v2 has a modulated frequency mid range, the others a low hum (think of 50/60Hz power frequency interference).

The reason was the HDMI cable, it caused a ground loop into analog inputs. Ground management was better in the old graka ...

What is to be done?

Isolating the XLR/Cinch wiring is an illusion ... therefore I must buy a new HDMI cable with sheath current filter (TV ground loop isolator).

Have a look on this!

 

 


LFE in hekeli siba 7.1


In most PRIRs the LFE is done by Realiser as virtual speaker. You have to figure out only the right LFE level, +10/-10/0 dB, no problem at all.

 

On watching movie with some LFE stuff (siba 7.1 PRIR) I've recognized a center lokalisiation irritation.


In this very good PRIR true 7.1 from hekeli (Thanks for it!!!) the LFE has an offset of 0 ms, the other channels where delayed by 4,5 - 5 ms.

 

In the picture from Sibelius Academy studio, I think the LFE is placed at the front in center position? What could be the reason of missing latency in PRIR recording?

 

With delay of 5 ms the PRIR sounds very well, matched like an artificial head for me ...

 


SVS simulation folder

I've updated the box with new virtual 7.1 responses.

Jürgen

post #299 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlejle View Post


LFE in hekeli siba 7.1


In most PRIRs the LFE is done by Realiser as virtual speaker. You have to figure out only the right LFE level, +10/-10/0 dB, no problem at all.

 

On watching movie with some LFE stuff (siba 7.1 PRIR) I've recognized a center lokalisiation irritation.


In this very good PRIR true 7.1 from hekeli (Thanks for it!!!) the LFE has an offset of 0 ms, the other channels where delayed by 4,5 - 5 ms.

 

In the picture from Sibelius Academy studio, I think the LFE is placed at the front in center position? What could be the reason of missing latency in PRIR recording?

 

With delay of 5 ms the PRIR sounds very well, matched like an artificial head for me ...


Thanks for noticing. Did you try all my versions, they are all slightly different in many ways? I think the first PRIR2046_siba_7.1_3s2s.SVS is the only one with 0ms LFE? Others are 1ms and 3ms. I guess measuring the LFE is not exact science. But you are right, changing the delay seems to have good effect.

 

The sub was as in the picture, without any processing so 0dB I believe. It did have a lowpass filter, didn't check the frequency.


Edited by hekeli - 11/18/12 at 12:43pm
post #300 of 353

I don't have a Realiser but I do like playing around with HRTFs and such.

 

How many of you guys have made a speaker set up outdoors? Off axis response of the speakers becomes much less important because of the lack of reflections. You would start with a very dry sound but I would suppose that adding some reverb should be easy enough. It would be interesting to try. Bass outdoors requires more power (no room gain) but this is not an issue with headphones.

 

There are several possible advantages. Of course no one wants to leave their audiophile speakers out in the weather, so listening rooms are indoors. An afternoon is something else, though...

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