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Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 18

post #256 of 353

Hi Darin,

Yes, I've analyzed the Sonus, look at the SVS_Demos, it's very good and comparable with Cello, use the Historie of sound files or the Realiser. Cello have more room reflections, but gives also a good location of front speakers for me.

It's resonable that the phase problem is not noticeable: you said "tons of bass"::: the spectrum says in Center, that there is an increase in bass between 20 and 150 Hz of 10 dB (Hanning/Bartlett).

Note, that in case of a comparsion with the LFE you must have high cut filter in signal chain to prevent phase erasement with other channels. HRTF based on phase and equalizer differences.
In Realizer you can only lower the highs 12 dB, but better than nothing (Menu/SW/Filters/Treble). Use multichannel files instead of Realiser modes to compare.


Jürgen

 

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #257 of 353
Just one idea pop up in my mind, does anyone know how to do a scoring system for making socre on your personal favourate PRIRs? We have vast of PRIRs from dropbox right know, if we could list all of them or many of them, let everyone here put score on it, we can find and analyse the top or most favourate PRIRs, perhaps it is meanful for the analyse the most general PRIR among all of them or find personal preference or the ear similiarity. If anyone here like this idea maybe we can try it, if not just ignore it.
post #258 of 353

Hi jiang1202,

Good idea,

that's just what I was thinking of. The quantity is sometimes confusing ...

Personal rating is perfect, but also some informations about room (reflection/disposition), recordist, system info, recording scenario (home, studio, channels, ...), field of application, ...., like the folder structure in svs_demo.


I think first choice is Excel (2003, because of compatibility).


PRIRs and informations can simply be linked into cells and anybody can read it with free viewer.


Can you create a tabulate with headings in proper english?

 

Next step could be SD card folders with special PRIR buildups ...

Jürgen


 

post #259 of 353

Uploaded my first "official" PRIR. I now realize it feels slightly flaky in some parts, didn't have time to verify much. I guess I'll probably revisit there sometime. Anyway, I happily use it right now until I manage to get something better.

 

Hekeli/Mixroom 7.1 (Klein+Hummel O300,O810)


Edited by hekeli - 10/15/12 at 1:46pm
post #260 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post

Uploaded my first "official" PRIR. I now realize it feels slightly flaky in some parts, didn't have time to verify much. I guess I'll probably revisit there sometime. Anyway, I happily use it right now until I manage to get something better.

 

Hekeli/Mixroom 7.1 (Klein+Hummel O300,O810)


Thanks for uploading! At first listen, it sounds very good to me. Good job! It actually works better for me than many of the other PRIR's that others have uploaded. Maybe our ears are shaped similarly...

 

I can tell the room has a lot of acoustic treatment. Sounds much better than AIX to me.

post #261 of 353

I just uploaded another PRIR.

 

After having unknown issues with Jan's system, he was nice enough to let me come back today.

 

With A/B comparison, this PRIR is MUCH better than the last one. I don't know what happened last time, but this time I used short single ended cables and long balanced cables. I think that may have been the problem.

 

I did the quick phase test and did not find any problems. Hopefully, neither will JleJle!

 

All the info is in the Dropbox folder called "Jan Montana 2.1 System V2".

 

Let me know what you think.

post #262 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

I just uploaded another PRIR.

 

After having unknown issues with Jan's system, he was nice enough to let me come back today.

 

With A/B comparison, this PRIR is MUCH better than the last one. I don't know what happened last time, but this time I used short single ended cables and long balanced cables. I think that may have been the problem.

 

I did the quick phase test and did not find any problems. Hopefully, neither will JleJle!

 

All the info is in the Dropbox folder called "Jan Montana 2.1 System V2".

 

Let me know what you think.


OK everyone,

 

Don't bother with my last PRIR, Jan Montana v2. Here's an interesting story about why...

 

Warning: Spoiler! - If you want, try to see if YOU can tell what the problem is before you see the answer. (Click to show)

 

I had mentioned to Jan a while back that there was a member here who has been analyzing the measurements and letting us know about any problems with the systems being measured. That was part of the reason why he wanted me to come over to do another PRIR measurement.

 

So, I did the measurement and uploaded the PRIR knowing the I could count on Jlejle to analyze the results.

 

Jlejle messaged me and told me that Jan's system was good and all in-phase (thank god!)

 

BUT, he found a dip in the frequency response around 8500k, which he showed me in a graph he generated:

 

 

When I was there, I heard that the highs were not as good as other PRIR's I was comparing it to, but I didn't say anything at the time so as not to jump to conlusions.

 

So I e-mailed Jan the bad news about his system.

 

Here's Jan's response:

 

Quote:

Very interesting Darin,

I have a confession to make.  I deliberately introduced a 6 db dip in the response at 9K
with a Q of 7.1 before you came over to test your equipment.  It came through very well.
I thank you and Jurgen for this result.  I'm very impressed.

 

What!? He is SO sneaky. He was just testing the Realiser, me, and Jlejle to see how well the measurements are made.

 

Needless to say, the Realiser passed with flying colors! As did Jlejle!

 

 

 

So, now that you know, I wonder if all of you can hear the same thing on the PRIR...

 

I already have plans to go back there to do another measurement. Hopefully he won't sabotage the next session too.

 

-Darin

post #263 of 353

The sneaky devil!!  I too had been wondering about these phase problems and how accurate the measurements were.  Now we know we can trust them.

post #264 of 353

Hi there,

 

Owner of a Realiser for two years now, I'm happy to see a thread abour PRIR.

I live in france, and unfortunately haven't found a decent Home Theater to make a nice capture.

 

What do I have to do to get access to your dropbox ? tongue_smile.gif

 

Alex

post #265 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenshprince View Post

I live in france, and unfortunately haven't found a decent Home Theater to make a nice capture.

 

Have you tried googling local studios with 5.1 or 7.1 monitoring? Hard to imagine any decend sized town without one.

post #266 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

Hi everyone,

 

I uploaded another PRIR I did today. It's in the folder "Roger 2.1 System".

 

It was a home listening system. The owner is actually writes reviews for http://www.positive-feedback.com/. You can see the details of his system in the Dropbox folder with photos.

 

You can also read about his system here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/staff.htm - Then search for "Roger" on the page.

 

His room had a lot of acoustic treatment so the room was very damped, but not too much. It sounds a lot different than the more "live" rooms I have measured.

 

He has also spent many years tweaking his system and has done an amazing job. The subwoofer was integrated really well. You couldn't even tell it was on. It just sounded like the speakers had TONS of bass.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Enjoy,

-Darin

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlejle View Post


Hi Darin,

the new PRIR sounds good, but there is a problem moving the head with the tracker, there are some artefacts and this is the reason:

Actual speaker phase alignment Roger VMPS RM30 in Realiser

L out
R OK
C out
LFE out
LS OK
RS out
LB OK
RB out

The method of recording is noticeable (two speakers used to get the surround set): look at the L-R phase change at LS/RS and LB/RB

Sorry, no good news, are a chance to have a new session there?

 

I guess it's time to have a possiblity to change channel phase in Realiser ...

Jürgen

 

 

The Realiser strikes again!

 

So I contacted Roger regarding Jürgen's findings.

 

I finally heard back from him today. I know no one doubted the Realiser measurement, including me...

 

Roger double checked his system and sure enough, the speaker wires attached to the left channel mid-range (6.5") driver were inverted! So all the sound below 260Hz was out of phase on the left channel. (So even if the Realiser could invert phase in software, in this case it wouldn't help since only one of the drivers was out of phase.

 

He was very gracious about it and thanked me for pointing out the error in his system. To his defense, he recently packed up a review pair of speakers and hadn't had a chance to do much listening since he re-installed his permanent speakers.

 

He has also offered to let me come back to do another measurement with the correct phase.

 

Yet another confirmation that the Realiser (when combined with Jürgen's expertise) is very accurate and cannot be fooled.

 

I think Jürgen should start a service. A client pays us to come in and do a Realiser measurement and then Jürgen can tell them if their system is set up properly. We could have a worldwide network of Realiser owners to offer the service. The clients would not know that all we really want to do is come do a measurement so we can add to our library of PRIR's! It would be nice to get paid to collect more PRIR's rather than paying people to do it. What do you think Jürgen? How much would you charge? biggrin.gif

 

-Darin

post #267 of 353

Hi Darin,

Nice and gimmick idea, I feel honored about your well-intended proposal to create a side job or sunlighting for measuring service for the whole world ... thanks, I've been fully stretched in job and have an uncommercial interest in doing this "relaxative" side job for the community in spare time.

 

Hmmmm, do you have a plan to divide the money (make no mistake in answering, ha, ha)?

Counterproposals

1) Studio-owners should feel free to buy the Realiser to support YOUR most informative recording sessions for free and helps building a database of serveral PRIRs - best promotion for the studios and a reason for some people, to come to the real room (spend much money there)!!!

2) We better exert gently leverage on Smyth people to integrate elementary phase control functions in Realiser to avoid such "job machine".


Some reasons, to keep the hands off your wished service:

In professional studios, phase alignment and sound quality are dear-bought basics, no problems found in such PRiRs up to this point.

Evaluation of PRIR audio signals in this shape with varying heads is without knowledge of given HRTF adverse influences extremly imprecise. Having seven stereo room responses and one scan of LFE gives a very good impression of reflection-timing, used substance of walls, ceilings and decay.

To gage a metrological reliable frequency range and phase response, recordings must taped up by standardised dummyheads, like Neumann KU-100, FABIAN, Head acoustics systems, ...., diffuse-field equalized in reflecting environment and recorded with higher sampling rates than 48kHz ...

If you substracts out the HRTF, audio interaural time difference (ITD) and intensity difference (EQ),  you could have a base for professional 3D spectral measurement, done from some experienced institutes with special programms.

Unfortunately coincides most frequency dropings like crossovers or false driver wiring with resonance of ear canal or shoulder reflection frequencies, like Roger's tricky problem ...

A forum full of ideas,  just imaginative ... , I like it!!!

Jürgen


 

post #268 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


OK everyone,

 

Don't bother with my last PRIR, Jan Montana v2. Here's an interesting story about why...

 

Warning: Spoiler! - If you want, try to see if YOU can tell what the problem is before you see the answer. (Click to show)

 

I had mentioned to Jan a while back that there was a member here who has been analyzing the measurements and letting us know about any problems with the systems being measured. That was part of the reason why he wanted me to come over to do another PRIR measurement.

 

So, I did the measurement and uploaded the PRIR knowing the I could count on Jlejle to analyze the results.

 

Jlejle messaged me and told me that Jan's system was good and all in-phase (thank god!)

 

BUT, he found a dip in the frequency response around 8500k, which he showed me in a graph he generated:

 

 

When I was there, I heard that the highs were not as good as other PRIR's I was comparing it to, but I didn't say anything at the time so as not to jump to conlusions.

 

So I e-mailed Jan the bad news about his system.

 

Here's Jan's response:

 

What!? He is SO sneaky. He was just testing the Realiser, me, and Jlejle to see how well the measurements are made.

 

Needless to say, the Realiser passed with flying colors! As did Jlejle!

 

 

 

So, now that you know, I wonder if all of you can hear the same thing on the PRIR...

 

I already have plans to go back there to do another measurement. Hopefully he won't sabotage the next session too.

 

-Darin


OK, I went back to Jan's house today and did a proper PRIR measurement. He assured me that everything was set up properly. He even checked the phase of everything this morning.

 

One thing he did change, was that he sold his subwoofer over the weekend. So, he adjusted his main woofers up to compensate for the missing sub. I don't really miss the lowest octave, but it's interesting to compare the difference.

 

I uploaded the new PRIR in the Jan Montana V2 folder. Please use the latest one if you want to hear his system.

 

Jurgen: If you have time, can you PM me the graph of his system for the new PRIR? Jan was really interested in seeing the results since tweaking his system without the sub. Thank you!

 

Enjoy,

-Darin

post #269 of 353
Thread Starter 

Haven't been around for a while, so a few days ago I logged in here and had a few private messages about drop box (some dating back months ago, im sorry for that). Please don't forget to include your email adresses as the invites go to your mail. Also if I dont reply within a few days you can try to send Silverlight a message.

 

On a side note: I think everyone who's already a member can invite someone, so another option is to just send a message to someone active in this thread :)
 

What I noticed myself is that if you're actively trying lots of different prirs on a daily base, in the end you just cant hear anymore what's good or not. I guess my ears got tired or maybe it was getting harder for my brain to pick up the differences. After taking a long break from trying different prirs it was actually easier to select the right prir. Which was in my case still the MSM one I put in my current favorite folder. Finally found some peace with just 1 prir and still enjoying the Realiser every day :)

 

I hope those rumours about smyth working on software to config the realiser on the pc gets realised soon. Would be interesting to start messing around with prirs again without too much hassle


Edited by Hoax - 10/24/12 at 12:04pm
post #270 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoax View Post
What I noticed myself is that if you're actively trying lots of different prirs on a daily base, in the end you just cant hear anymore what's good or not. I guess my ears got tired or maybe it was getting harder for my brain to pick up the differences. After taking a long break from trying different prirs it was actually easier to select the right prir. Which was in my case still the MSM one I put in my current favorite folder. Finally found some peace with just 1 prir and still enjoying the Realiser every day :)

I find the opposite to be true. In fact, the more PRIR's I listen to, the more I get to know the differences and eventually the differences get more pronounced than less. Now, there are definitely some PRIR's that I originally thought were pretty close, but now I could definitely identify them in a blind test. Once you know the differences, it's hard not to hear them.

 

Prior to getting the Realiser, I was terrible at identifying the differences between listening systems. Now, I am getting much better at it. (Of course since our audio memory only lasts about 6 seconds, it would be pretty hard to do without the Realiser.)

 

One friend who had no interest in the Realiser even though he is VERY much into high end audio, now loves listening to my latest PRIR's as compared to his system. It has really opened his mind to the differences between his system and his friends' systems which I have also measured. Being able to instantly compare other people's listening rooms is impossible any other way.

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