Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by athenaesword 

hi guys quick question. when playing 5.1 tracks (i.e high def movie) I would always want a 5.1 or higher prir, and with 2.0 it's preferable to hae a stereo prir unless I want an artificial surround sound right?

There is no difference between a 5.1, 7.1 or 2.0 PRIR when playing back 2 channel audio. If audio is only being fed to the L and R channel, then the Realiser only plays back sound from the L and R channel and ignores the other channels, by default.

That's why I always do a 7.1 PRIR even on 2.0 channel speaker systems. Might as well as long as I am there.

However, there is a difference when doing a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR. The speaker angles are different if you follow the Dolby or THX specifications. Personally, I don't care that much about the difference in speaker angles when listening to a 5.1 source on a 7.1 PRIR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darinf 

There is no difference between a 5.1, 7.1 or 2.0 PRIR when playing back 2 channel audio. If audio is only being fed to the L and R channel, then the Realiser only plays back sound from the L and R channel and ignores the other channels, by default.

 

That's why I always do a 7.1 PRIR even on 2.0 channel speaker systems. Might as well as long as I am there.

 

However, there is a difference when doing a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR. The speaker angles are different if you follow the Dolby or THX specifications. Personally, I don't care that much about the difference in speaker angles when listening to a 5.1 source on a 7.1 PRIR.

ah I get it now... thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiang1202 

Darinf , you have contributed several remarkable PRIR 7.1 which impressed me a lot, you mentioned that you didn't really care about 5.1sourse used in 7.1 PRIR, from my point, I think the LS and RS in 7.1 PRIR is nearer than in 5.1 PRIR, I guess if 5.1 sourse played in 5.1 PRIR will have better surrounding effect and better soundstage, because LS RS in 5.1 PRIR are more seperated and backed. Am I right on this point? Most of the Blue movie now are made by 5.1, if I am right on the point, I will be very happy to see some of 5.1 PRIR made by you in your later visit :)

Almost all the PRIR's I have posted have been from 2 channel speaker systems. So I am going to talk about this relative to making 7.1 or 5.1 PRIR's from 2 speakers...

If you look at the speaker placement specs for THX 5.1 and 7.1, the positions of the Ls and Rs speakers are actually the same. Their recommended positions are 90 to 110 degrees from front center.

The defaults on the Realiser for speaker angles is 110 degrees for the Ls and Rs channels.(See page 28 of the Realiser manual.)

I leave them that way for either a 5.1 or 7.1 measurement. The main reason is that it's not usually practical to get a 90 degree measurement on most 2 channel systems. To get a 90 degree measurement, assuming you can't move the speakers, you would have to do the measurement while "sitting" directly between the two speakers.

This is not possible most of the time since there is usually equipment placed directly between the two speakers.

Secondly you would be taking a measurement with your ears facing the side of the speaker. This would not give you a great measurement.

So, with a 110 degree angle, you can be slightly in "front" (towards the back of the room) of the two speakers. This is more practical since there is usually open space there and your ears are closer to the front of the speakers than the side. (Especially if the speakers are toed inward.)

That's why I don't think a 5.1 PRIR vs. a 7.1 PRIR would be really much different. I actually prefer the Ls and Rs to be slightly behind me even with 5.1 material. I suppose with the speakers at 90 degrees there is a tiny bit more distance between the speakers, but nothing that would dramatically affect the sound.

Technically the 110 degree speaker placement for 5.1 is still within the THX specs for 5.1 AND 7.1. So why not just do a 7.1 PRIR?

I am also usually trying not take as little time as possible when I am in someone's home or business. So, I don't have the luxury of doing separate 5.1 and 7.1 PRIR's. I would rather take the time to do multiple 7.1 PRIR's to make sure at least one of them turns out accurately. I always seem to find issues with my first PRIR attempts which get resolved in subsequent measurements, hopefully.

I don't think a 5.1 PRIR would sound any different than a 7.1 PRIR.

-Darin

Hello folks!

Been lurking on this board for a few weeks now, and after reading through all 100+ pages of this thread (well, ok, admittedly some skimming too): http://www.head-fi.org/t/418401/long-awaited-smyth-svs-realiser-now-available-for-purchase I’ve finally decided to take the plunge and buy the Realiser.  I’m an audiophile newbie. I’ve always been an audiophile at heart but never having the suitable venue (1-room apartment) or pocketbook, the realiser seems like an ideal solution, and I’ve yet to hear from anyone really disappointed in its ability to capture some incredible high-end systems.  I understand a lot of people here prefer other people’s PRIRs, even when having had their own done at studios, but I think I’ll always wonder what the difference would be with having a personal PRIR done on a hi-fi system.  Plus, I love the idea of really experiencing an A/B comparison.  So I’m planning to fly out to LA at the start of December to do a PRIR correctly with Lorr at AIX.  He did mention that the Egyptian theater *may* also still be available for a PRIR, and I’m intrigued by the idea of capturing a full cinema auditorium on the Realiser.  I know a few people here have had it done and I could test out their PRIRs, but I don’t yet have a Realiser to try it with, and I figure a set-up with such unique acoustics as the theater may be particularly off with using someone else’s PRIRs.  So, I was wondering if there was anyone else on here who may be interested in splitting the cost of the theater and doing a PRIR there?  I’m initially planning to be there 12/3, though the plans aren’t 100% finalized yet. 

Also, as I’m traveling from Houston to LA, and given there are some logistics/costs to doing so (which I think is likely worth it even if I am just able to calibrate at AIX and leverage Lorr’s expertise, as some others have mentioned here), I’d like to take advantage of some other calibration opportunities are available in the area while I’m there.  So if anyone else might want to do a bit of a calibration road trip to a few sites in the SoCal area sometime during that weekend 12/1-12/3, I would be more than happy to split costs on any access fees, etc.  Or if you know the names of a few places in the LA/San Diego area that are fairly open to doing calibrations, I’d really appreciate that too.  Darinf, I know you mentioned trying a few places, I would certainly love to tag along if you were thinking of going to any of them during that time period.  I'd even bring the beer. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jand 
So I’m planning to fly out to LA at the start of December to do a PRIR correctly with Lorr at AIX.  He did mention that the Egyptian theater *may* also still be available for a PRIR, and I’m intrigued by the idea of capturing a full cinema auditorium on the Realiser.  I know a few people here have had it done and I could test out their PRIRs, but I don’t yet have a Realiser to try it with, and I figure a set-up with such unique acoustics as the theater may be particularly off with using someone else’s PRIRs.  So, I was wondering if there was anyone else on here who may be interested in splitting the cost of the theater and doing a PRIR there?  I’m initially planning to be there 12/3, though the plans aren’t 100% finalized yet. 

Also, as I’m traveling from Houston to LA, and given there are some logistics/costs to doing so (which I think is likely worth it even if I am just able to calibrate at AIX and leverage Lorr’s expertise, as some others have mentioned here), I’d like to take advantage of some other calibration opportunities are available in the area while I’m there.  So if anyone else might want to do a bit of a calibration road trip to a few sites in the SoCal area sometime during that weekend 12/1-12/3, I would be more than happy to split costs on any access fees, etc.  Or if you know the names of a few places in the LA/San Diego area that are fairly open to doing calibrations, I’d really appreciate that too.  Darinf, I know you mentioned trying a few places, I would certainly love to tag along if you were thinking of going to any of them during that time period.  I'd even bring the beer. 

Welcome Jand and congratulations on purchasing the Realiser. For me it has been an amazing journey back into the world of hi end audio after being away from it for 20 years.

The setup for doing a PRIR at the Egyptian is very involved. Aside from actually renting out the theater, the main issues are cable lengths. Lorr mentioned that it requires converting the microphone audio signals to run over Cat-6 wiring and then running those cables from your seating position up to the projection booth/sound system. I still don't know how the Realiser audio outputs are connected to the sound system, but I assume Lorr has all the gear for that.

So, how much does it cost to do the PRIR at the Egyptian? I might consider doing it, depending on the costs. However, the current Egyptian PRIR that's available seems to work pretty well. I am not sure it's worth the effort since the sound seems "too big" and reverberant as a everyday use PRIR. It's more of a novelty to use as a demo. BUt on the other hand, it really does sound like you're sitting in a movie theater. You just have to decide whether or not that's what you really want. I go to the movies for the large screen size, but I find that high end music or home theater systems tend to sound a lot better to me than most movie theaters.

I am in the process of arranging some PRIR sessions with Kiritz, but the date looks like it's going to be 11/5 through 11/7. You are welcome to come out then. I am organizing a Head-Fi meet in San Diego on November 3rd too, so if you wanted to come out for that and then stay to come with us to the various PRIR sessions, that would be fine.

For early December, that could be tricky. The thing is, I run the risk of "wearing out my welcome" so to speak with the various locations for PRIR's. I would not want to ask the same people only a month later to give me access again for more PRIR sessions. I would have to find other "victims" to approach. I also think as the holidays approach, people are busy and are less likely to be willing to take the time to let us come in.

So, I wish I could help you out for December, but I think it would be tough for me to arrange anything for you. I do know two people with great custom built home theater rooms, with 7.1 systems. They seem to always be willing to share their systems. One is located in Palmdale, CA and the other is in Compton, CA. If you're willing to do some driving AND feel comfortable doing your own PRIR's, then I could put you in contact with them. However, for a beginner to do your own PRIR measurements with a 7.1 system, it can be VERY challenging. Even when I did the PRIR in Compton with Lorr, we had hours of troubleshooting which ultimately never got 100% resolved. I also brought LOTS of cables since you have to be able to connect 8 analog outputs of the Realiser to their amp inputs which can be challenging.

Enjoy your Realiser!

Looks like I am setting up a mini PRIR tour with Kiritz and Jand.

I think my next business venture will be selling "PRIR Hunter Tours", where I set up measurement tours in various cities.

Anyone interested?

darinf,

Apologies if the answer is obvious somewhere, but where are you guys going to for the PRIR measurements? I'd been making arrangements to go AIX and Mi Casa with Lorr, but Mi Casa has been hard to get lately, so I've been shelving my plans. If you guys are going to AIX and several other places perhaps I'll drop by.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YCH 

darinf,

 

Apologies if the answer is obvious somewhere, but where are you guys going to for the PRIR measurements? I'd been making arrangements to go AIX and Mi Casa with Lorr, but Mi Casa has been hard to get lately, so I've been shelving my plans. If you guys are going to AIX and several other places perhaps I'll drop by.

Since I live in San Diego, all the places I am trying to arrange are in the San Diego area. We have plans to go to at least one place in Carlsbad, CA. The other places I am trying to set up are in San Diego. Member Jand was arranging to go to AIX first separately, and then coming down to San Diego after that for a couple days to visit other places if I can get it set up.

Although I was trying to set up places who would let us come in for free. We may end up having to pay for room "rental" at some places.

Hey YCH, I'm initially hoping to do 11/6 at AIX, are you in the area and able to come down?  I'm still waiting to hear whether AIX will be available on that date.  We may be able to split the studio costs if we can do it at the same time.  I'd PM you but I'm restricted in how many PMs I can send as a new board member, so if you'd like, PM me with your email address and we can maybe coordinate that way. 

Hi everyone,

I uploaded another PRIR I did today. It's in the folder "Roger 2.1 System".

It was a home listening system. The owner is actually writes reviews for http://www.positive-feedback.com/. You can see the details of his system in the Dropbox folder with photos.

You can also read about his system here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/staff.htm - Then search for "Roger" on the page.

His room had a lot of acoustic treatment so the room was very damped, but not too much. It sounds a lot different than the more "live" rooms I have measured.

He has also spent many years tweaking his system and has done an amazing job. The subwoofer was integrated really well. You couldn't even tell it was on. It just sounded like the speakers had TONS of bass.

Let me know what you think.

Enjoy,

-Darin

Hi Darin,

the new PRIR sounds good, but there is a problem moving the head with the tracker, there are some artefacts and this is the reason:

Actual speaker phase alignment Roger VMPS RM30 in Realiser

L out
R OK
C out
LFE out
LS OK
RS out
LB OK
RB out

The method of recording is noticeable (two speakers used to get the surround set): look at the L-R phase change at LS/RS and LB/RB

Sorry, no good news, are a chance to have a new session there?

I guess it's time to have a possiblity to change channel phase in Realiser ...

Jürgen


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlejle 

Hi Darin,

the new PRIR sounds good, but there is a problem moving the head with the tracker, there are some artefacts and this is the reason:

Actual speaker phase alignment Roger VMPS RM30 in Realiser

L out
R OK
C out
LFE out
LS OK
RS out
LB OK
RB out

The method of recording is noticeable (two speakers used to get the surround set): look at the L-R phase change at LS/RS and LB/RB

Sorry, no good news, are a chance to have a new session there?

 

I guess it's time to have a possiblity to change channel phase in Realiser ...

Jürgen


 

That's a bummer. I did not have any time to really listen to the PRIR while I was there. I am not sure about going back there again. I could ask...

So you're saying that his L speaker is connected out of phase? (Or the phase is being inverted somewhere in his chain.)

I sure wish the Realiser could invert the phase in software.

Darin,

Don't know about the phase issues, but to me the new PRIR sounds very good.  Of particular note is the solid, tight, well-defined bass.  Listening to orchestral music with the double bass and cello sections, they sound particularly good.  The PRIR is very nice to listen to for me.

Stewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlejle 

Hi Darin,

the new PRIR sounds good, but there is a problem moving the head with the tracker, there are some artefacts and this is the reason:

Actual speaker phase alignment Roger VMPS RM30 in Realiser

L out
R OK
C out
LFE out
LS OK
RS out
LB OK
RB out

The method of recording is noticeable (two speakers used to get the surround set): look at the L-R phase change at LS/RS and LB/RB

Sorry, no good news, are a chance to have a new session there?

 

I guess it's time to have a possiblity to change channel phase in Realiser ...

Jürgen


 

OK, after further listening to the PRIR from Roger's house, I can definitely hear the problem. I forgot that I can do a quick phase test when I am on site doing a PRIR. This test would have helped me hear right away that there's a problem, like at Ivan's house.

So, if you put the Realiser into the "tMute" mode where the audio loop is playing, do the following test:

Just mute all the other channels except L and R. You should hear a very stable image dead center, where the center channel is. If there's a problem, you can immediately hear that the image is NOT dead center. Int he case of the Roger PRIR, the images is fuzzy and almost in my head. You can compare by muting all channels except the Center. Then switch back to just L and R without center. They should sound very similar in terms of the location of the sound.

If you do this with say my Stereo Unlimited PRIR, it works fine which tells me that there were no phase issues, I think. (JleJle, have you analyzed that PRIR?) I am guessing it's fine.

I need to remember to do this simple test, especially for two channel systems to check the PRIR while I am there so I can try to troubleshoot the problem right there.

Now that I know what the problem is, I can't even listen to that PRIR since the imaging is totally thrown off for me. But I love the timbre and the bass.

I also have the added issue of telling Roger, a well respected reviewer, that the system he has been tweaking for years is out of phase on the left channel! I hope that doesn't piss him off! (It shouldn't since it may be an issue with his monoblock amps which he installed into his system recently.

Oh well, we'll see what he says.

-Darin