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Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 16

post #226 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

Yes, somewhat comparable to the Revelation, but on multichannel recordings I hear broader soundstage, more diffuse vocals (less confined to the center channel), MUCH more detail, more alive, more bass, near-perfect drum reproduction . . . this is easily my favorite.  Most PRIRs make me so happy to hear a speaker sound instead of just a headphone sound, but this one puts me beyond the room of speakers.  Just wow.  Thanks, Darin.  (Sorry to not have given you a spoiler alert earlier on the 009s.  Pretend I made it up!)

I expect that the difference is greater for you since the PRIR was made for your ears.  I do think there is something of a limit to how effective it is to share PRIRs between listeners.  And I can see I am going to wind up trying out other phones.  I think there are some limitations with the stock setup.  Still, it is surprising to me how very good someone else's PRIR can sound!

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post #227 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

I expect that the difference is greater for you since the PRIR was made for your ears.  I do think there is something of a limit to how effective it is to share PRIRs between listeners.  And I can see I am going to wind up trying out other phones.  I think there are some limitations with the stock setup.  Still, it is surprising to me how very good someone else's PRIR can sound!


Yes, for me, the PRIR's are very accurate and fairly closely reproduce the sound I was hearing in the actual room. The differences from one system to another is very dramatic. I could probably identify each of the PRIR's with blind listening. I am guessing that for everyone else, it's not quite the same, but you do seem to be hearing similar qualities to what I am hearing. That's the nature of the PRIR measurements. I have only found one or two of the other people's PRIR's that seem to work well for me

 

Have you gone to AIX for measurements?

 

I was going to, but now I think I am getting pretty good results without having to spend any money.

 

If anyone wants to come down to San Diego, there are a couple of systems that I could probably arrange a PRIR measurement for you. For most of the systems, I think it was a one time deal and I probably wouldn't want to bother them again. But there are a couple places that I think would be OK with me bringing someone else and doing another PRIR session. I am thinking at the Acoustic Zen factory and my friend, Jan Montana. I really have to go back to Jan's house to get a better PRIR. Of course there may be buying some beers or dinner involved. ;-)

 

Of course, if you are in the market to buy some gear, I could definitely arrange a PRIR session at Audio Revelation(Magico PRIR) or Stereo Unlimited(Sonus Faber PRIR). It would be arranged with the idea that you were serious about buying something like a DAC or other hi-fi gear.

post #228 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

 

Have you gone to AIX for measurements?

 

I was going to, but now I think I am getting pretty good results without having to spend any money.

 

 

Just my two cents:  I had a fantastic time at AIX -- not just in getting things done, but also in learning about the technology, meeting Lorr, and so on.  But right now none of those measurements are in my presets.  YMMV

post #229 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

 

Just my two cents:  I had a fantastic time at AIX -- not just in getting things done, but also in learning about the technology, meeting Lorr, and so on.  But right now none of those measurements are in my presets.  YMMV


I agree. Even though I have never been to AIX, Lorr volunteered to come to a measurement session I set up with a few people from the Los Angeles Home Theater Users Group. Although I have e-mailed Lorr at length with all my crazy questions, meeting him and talking to him in person was a great learning experience. He taught me a lot about the Realiser and all the settings and doing PRIR measurements, etc. Definitely worth it just to meet Lorr. Lorr does offer to let you come to their office in Camarillo, CA and do a measurement using their modest 5.1 system. He probably wouldn't even charge you for that. You would get a lot out of it.

 

I have not been to impressed with any of the AIX PRIR's, but I always attributed that to them not being my PRIR's.

post #230 of 350

I supposed it depends on how average your ears are physically, I think 2 people who have identical or very similar ears would have no problem sharing the same PRIPs, while someone with very unusually shaped or asymmetrical ears will not be able to use anyone else's PRIRs with good results. Just like how dummy head recording systems or binaural plugins are all based on ears of average sizes and shapes, so in theory, wouldn't actually work for everyone. My 2 cents. cool.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post
I have not been to impressed with any of the AIX PRIR's, but I always attributed that to them not being my PRIR's.
post #231 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


Yes, for me, the PRIR's are very accurate and fairly closely reproduce the sound I was hearing in the actual room. The differences from one system to another is very dramatic. I could probably identify each of the PRIR's with blind listening. I am guessing that for everyone else, it's not quite the same, but you do seem to be hearing similar qualities to what I am hearing. That's the nature of the PRIR measurements. I have only found one or two of the other people's PRIR's that seem to work well for me

 

Have you gone to AIX for measurements?

 

I was going to, but now I think I am getting pretty good results without having to spend any money.

 

If anyone wants to come down to San Diego, there are a couple of systems that I could probably arrange a PRIR measurement for you. For most of the systems, I think it was a one time deal and I probably wouldn't want to bother them again. But there are a couple places that I think would be OK with me bringing someone else and doing another PRIR session. I am thinking at the Acoustic Zen factory and my friend, Jan Montana. I really have to go back to Jan's house to get a better PRIR. Of course there may be buying some beers or dinner involved. ;-)

 

Of course, if you are in the market to buy some gear, I could definitely arrange a PRIR session at Audio Revelation(Magico PRIR) or Stereo Unlimited(Sonus Faber PRIR). It would be arranged with the idea that you were serious about buying something like a DAC or other hi-fi gear.

Interesting!  Yes, I did a 2.0  and 5.1 at AIX with Lorr at the controls.  To my ears, these PRIRs sound a bit flat.  For one thing, the room is not very live, I think because it is intended as a mastering studio.  The spatial positioning is quite stable and accurate, which is good, but the liveness and impact of your last PRIR (yes, it is the best for me too) and the audio revelation make these two PRIRs much more interesting to listen to.  They also have more depth to the sound stage and more air.  It is very surprising to me, since I know the AIX was calibrated to my own ears, and the others not.  But I can't deny my listening experience, which is better with your PRIRs.  Bass also seems better, and the soundstage is wider, less focussed on the center.

 

I would be very interested in coming down to do some measurements.  I will have to think about the idea of going somewhere where the expectation would be that I would buy some gear.  That is possible to.  It's pretty easy for me to come down to San Diego with a few weeks notice.  Certainly the places that you think wouldn't care if I were a customer or not would be great.

 

Stewart 

post #232 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

Interesting!  Yes, I did a 2.0  and 5.1 at AIX with Lorr at the controls.  To my ears, these PRIRs sound a bit flat.  For one thing, the room is not very live, I think because it is intended as a mastering studio.  The spatial positioning is quite stable and accurate, which is good, but the liveness and impact of your last PRIR (yes, it is the best for me too) and the audio revelation make these two PRIRs much more interesting to listen to.  They also have more depth to the sound stage and more air.  It is very surprising to me, since I know the AIX was calibrated to my own ears, and the others not.  But I can't deny my listening experience, which is better with your PRIRs.  Bass also seems better, and the soundstage is wider, less focussed on the center.

 

I would be very interested in coming down to do some measurements.  I will have to think about the idea of going somewhere where the expectation would be that I would buy some gear.  That is possible to.  It's pretty easy for me to come down to San Diego with a few weeks notice.  Certainly the places that you think wouldn't care if I were a customer or not would be great.

 

Stewart 


I have heard from others who have been to AIX that they felt the room was too damped. For a recording studio, that makes sense, but for listening, I am not sure that's the best thing. The sound of the room can certainly add to the enjoyment of the music/movies.

 

I wasn't suggesting that you "pretend" that you are interested in buying something at a hi fi store. All I meant was that if you were really in the market for a DAC or some other gear, then it would be easier to schedule a measurement session at a retail store. With the stores I have approached, I told them that I was basically asking them for a favor and that I was not really in the market to buy anything. Fortunately some owners were just kind enough to help me out. Other stores never responded to me.

 

So, to schedule measurement sessions for you down here, I would target either manufacturers or people I know personally. Fellow audiophiles I know love to "show off" their systems and seem to be pretty open to demoing their system to other friends. People in the community are generally pretty nice. If you want to pick a day to some down, let me know and I can start asking around. I would think we might be able to hit two different locations in one day. I was actually thinking about trying to set something up at the Von Schweikert Audio factory in Riverside, CA some day. Maybe we could both go there.

 

-Darin

post #233 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


I have heard from others who have been to AIX that they felt the room was too damped. For a recording studio, that makes sense, but for listening, I am not sure that's the best thing. The sound of the room can certainly add to the enjoyment of the music/movies.

 

 

So, to schedule measurement sessions for you down here, I would target either manufacturers or people I know personally. Fellow audiophiles I know love to "show off" their systems and seem to be pretty open to demoing their system to other friends. People in the community are generally pretty nice. If you want to pick a day to some down, let me know and I can start asking around. I would think we might be able to hit two different locations in one day. I was actually thinking about trying to set something up at the Von Schweikert Audio factory in Riverside, CA some day. Maybe we could both go there.

 

-Darin

Damped is a good word for it.  The AIX sound, at least as I have it replicated, is fairly dead, as compared to some of the PRIRs I like.   I think it would be terrific to do something at Von Schweikert Audio, especially if it involved their flagship models.  I am very curious to find out if the Realiser can truly come close to replicating the sound of a very large top end system.  I use the Realiser almost entirely for music, so trying to capture the sonic qualities of the top end is my quest.  

 

Very generous of you to offer to help out with some measurements.  I have to look at my schedule, but sometime later in the month or early next?  I am in Palo Alto, so it's an easy flight from San Jose airport to San Diego.  Doing two visits in one day would be excellent.  Perhaps you could check with von Schweikert and let me know.  But of course, the other possibilities you mentioned would be fine too.

 

Stewart

post #234 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

Damped is a good word for it.  The AIX sound, at least as I have it replicated, is fairly dead, as compared to some of the PRIRs I like.   I think it would be terrific to do something at Von Schweikert Audio, especially if it involved their flagship models.  I am very curious to find out if the Realiser can truly come close to replicating the sound of a very large top end system.  I use the Realiser almost entirely for music, so trying to capture the sonic qualities of the top end is my quest.  

 

Very generous of you to offer to help out with some measurements.  I have to look at my schedule, but sometime later in the month or early next?  I am in Palo Alto, so it's an easy flight from San Jose airport to San Diego.  Doing two visits in one day would be excellent.  Perhaps you could check with von Schweikert and let me know.  But of course, the other possibilities you mentioned would be fine too.

 

Stewart


Hi Stewart,

 

For some reason I thought you were from LA.

 

I will PM you so we can take this discussion off-line.

post #235 of 350

Hello darinf and everyone,

 

I just uploaded all the PRIRs I have personally made.  There are two from AIX, a 5.1 and a 7.1.  When I first listened to these, after listening only to the default from Smyth, I was quite impressed.  At this point, having listened to some others, including those made by other people, I find the AIX room to be quite damped and dead.  For the purposes of listening to music these are not very interesting to me.  One very positive note is that localization of all the instruments in the sound stage is stable and precise, which is, I suppose, one reason why these PRIRs would work very well for mastering.

 

There are two I made at Audio High in Mountain View with their PEAK DIABLO 2.0 system.  These are quite expensive speakers, in the $70K range I think.  To me the effect is a little odd.  In some portions of the audio spectrum, I think mostly mid bass and mid treble, the speakers sound great to me.  But there appears to be a roll off in the upper treble.  I listen to these with pleasure with some discs, and for many others I prefer Audio Revelation and the last PRIR darinf uploaded most of all.

 

Finally, last time I went to New York I visited Sensorium, a high end audio shop in Manhattan, and made a PRIR with their 5.1 system.  I don't remember the specifics of the system, except that the speakers were supposed to be terrific, with a plasma tweeter.  I was disappointed in this PRIR.  To me the sound is a bit harsh.  I don't find myself listening to it much.

 

I'd be interested in others' feedback about these PRIRs.  One puzzle to me is that the only way to make a PRIR uploadable to the Realiser is to only have PRIRxxxx.SVS as its name, no other characters.  So I change other people's PRIRs by removing other characters from the name of the file prior to attempting to install them in my Realiser and play them.  How then is it possible that when I play, for example, someone's wilsonsasha, the name wilsonssasha appears on my Realiser screen?  Very odd.

post #236 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post
I'd be interested in others' feedback about these PRIRs.  One puzzle to me is that the only way to make a PRIR uploadable to the Realiser is to only have PRIRxxxx.SVS as its name, no other characters.  So I change other people's PRIRs by removing other characters from the name of the file prior to attempting to install them in my Realiser and play them.  How then is it possible that when I play, for example, someone's wilsonsasha, the name wilsonssasha appears on my Realiser screen?  Very odd.

Thanks for uploading those PRIR's.

 

I have not had a chance to listen to them yet.

 

The Realiser requires all the files to be named specifically and with only 8 characters, specifically for PRIR's "PRIRXXXX.SVS" where XXXX is a 4 digit number. However, embedded within that file is the description you enter when you created the PRIR. That description is entered at the end of the PRIR measurement process. You can also enter a default name and description so that you don't have to re-type the same thing for every PRIR measurement using the "menu-9" function. (Don't forget to save the default text by pressing "!-select".) I always enter the default text prior to going to do a PRIR just to make the process faster for each PRIR.

 

Then after I get home, I will use a hex file editor and open the PRIR files so I can type in more descriptive text in the user and description and use capital letters. You have to be careful when editing the PRIR file to make sure you don't change the length of the file or use more characters than allowed in the PRIR. In Windows, I use this program: XVI32.EXE

 

So that's how you can change what appears on the screen of the Realiser for each PRIR, HPEQ, or PRES file.
 

post #237 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

Thanks for uploading those PRIR's.

 

I have not had a chance to listen to them yet.

 

The Realiser requires all the files to be named specifically and with only 8 characters, specifically for PRIR's "PRIRXXXX.SVS" where XXXX is a 4 digit number. However, embedded within that file is the description you enter when you created the PRIR. That description is entered at the end of the PRIR measurement process. You can also enter a default name and description so that you don't have to re-type the same thing for every PRIR measurement using the "menu-9" function. (Don't forget to save the default text by pressing "!-select".) I always enter the default text prior to going to do a PRIR just to make the process faster for each PRIR.

 

Then after I get home, I will use a hex file editor and open the PRIR files so I can type in more descriptive text in the user and description and use capital letters. You have to be careful when editing the PRIR file to make sure you don't change the length of the file or use more characters than allowed in the PRIR. In Windows, I use this program: XVI32.EXE

 

So that's how you can change what appears on the screen of the Realiser for each PRIR, HPEQ, or PRES file.
 

Ah...I get it!  I just wanted to be sure that people can identify the files once I renamed them and uploaded them.  But this is not something I have to worry about  since I now see that whoever was at the controls when the PRIR was made has already insured that they can be identified.  

 

I'll get back to you later about dates.  In the meantime, I am going to try to figure out how to make a 5.1 out of my 2.0 PEAK.  If you have a simple explanation you could post, that would be helpful.  Seems like you have done this quite a bit.  I don't always find the manual all that easy to follow.  But I really should be patient and read this section again.

post #238 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post
I'll get back to you later about dates.  In the meantime, I am going to try to figure out how to make a 5.1 out of my 2.0 PEAK.  If you have a simple explanation you could post, that would be helpful.  Seems like you have done this quite a bit.  I don't always find the manual all that easy to follow.  But I really should be patient and read this section again.

I assume you mean you have a Peak 2.0 system and you want to do a 5.1 PRIR measurement? You can't "make" a 5.1 PRIR from a 2.0 PRIR. You have to make a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR during the measurement process. I know that might be obvious, but I just wanted clarify since your statement was not clear.

 

The process of creating a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR from a 2.0 speaker system is not hard. It is a lot of steps though. But once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy.

 

The key to the whole process is the setting, "Menu-SPK" , "Save at end" setting. Essentially you leave "save at end" set to NO until the last pair of measurements.

 

So here's an outline of the process for a 7.1 PRIR from two speakers:

 

1) Save at end: NO - do a measurement of the two speakers as Left and Right channel

2) Save at end: NO - face away from the speaker, and get closer to the speakers (move towards front of room, still equidistant from each speaker.) Do a measurement with those speaker as the Ls and Rs channels

3) Save at end: Yes - face away from the speakers and move to the sweet spot. Do a measurement with those speakers as the Lb and Rb channels

 

Since the last measurement has "save at end:YES", once you are finished with that measurement, it will ask you to name and save your PRIR and you are done!

 

So that's the idea. There are other settings you have to change, but I just wanted to give you an overall idea of what you are doing.

 

Here's a more detailed outline of the steps:

 

  1. Do a CAL to check audio levels. Make sure you only have the L and R channels active.
  2. "Menu-SPK"
                 Save at end:NO
                 "Excitation Menu" - I set it to 12seconds, 1 pass
  3. In that same menu, select "Speaker Mode Menu" - set "Speaker Mode:LR"
  4. Exit out of all the menus
  5. Press SPK
  6. Turn all channels off except the L and R channel (usually channel 1 and 2 are on and all others off). To turn the channels off, press the corresponding numbers on the remote.
  7. Press OK to start the PRIR measurement.
  8. Once the measurement is done, go back to the "menu-SPK" menu
  9. Leave everything the same, except select "Speaker Mode Menu" - set "Speaker Mode:LsRs"
  10. Exit out of the menus
  11. Press SPK
  12. Leave all the other channels alone. Just turn on the Ls and Rs channels (usually channel 5 and 6). To turn the channels on, press the corresponding numbers on the remote.
  13. Move closer towards the front of the room and then turn around and face away from the speakers. Press OK to start the PRIR measurement. (To know where to look for "Look left" and "Look right" I use a laser level and find points on the back of the room that are 30degrees to each side of center from your current position so I know where to look.)
  14. Once the measurement is done, go back to the "menu-SPK" menu
  15. Change "Save at end:YES";
  16. Select "Speaker Mode Menu" - set "Speaker Mode:LbRb"
  17. Exit out of the menus
  18. Press SPK
  19. Leave all the other channels alone. Just turn on the Lb and Rb channels (usually channel 7 and 8). To turn the channels on, press the corresponding numbers on the remote.
  20. Move back to the sweet spot and then turn around and face away from the speakers. Press OK to start the PRIR measurement. (To know where to look for "Look left" and "Look right" I use a laser level and find points on the back of the room that are 30degrees to each side of center so I know where to look. These points will be different than the Ls and Rs points.)
  21. Once this measurement is done, since you had "Save at end:YES", the PRIR measurement is done and you are prompted to enter the PRIR name and description.
  22. Keep pressing OK until you are back at the main screen.
  23. You now have your new PRIR measurement stored in memory position 64
  24. The first thing I do at this point is copy the PRIR to another internal memory location since position 64 will get automatically overwritten the next time you do a PRIR. Then I also copy it to the SD card just in case.
  25. Now load your new PRIR into a preset and check it to make sure it sounds OK. This step is VERY important since I have found all sorts of problems with PRIR measurements. I even like to compare it to some of my best PRIR's to make sure I got a good one.

 

There are actually a lot of other things to check, but I didn't want to have 50 steps!

 

Again, I find the key to this whole process is really understanding what you're doing from a overall standpoint so it all makes sense to you. If you are just following the steps and have no idea what you're doing, it can get very frustrating and confusing especially if something goes wrong.

 

It's not that hard, except the first few times.

 

Good luck!

 

Please let me know if I made any mistakes above.

 

-Darin

post #239 of 350

hi guys quick question. when playing 5.1 tracks (i.e high def movie) I would always want a 5.1 or higher prir, and with 2.0 it's preferable to hae a stereo prir unless I want an artificial surround sound right?

post #240 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by athenaesword View Post

hi guys quick question. when playing 5.1 tracks (i.e high def movie) I would always want a 5.1 or higher prir, and with 2.0 it's preferable to hae a stereo prir unless I want an artificial surround sound right?

Not sure what you are asking.  I have a lot of multi-channel surround music records and some downloads of same, and I have several PRIRs made on 5.1 systems. When I play the discrete multi-channel SACDs via the 5.1 PRIRs, this is not artificial surround.  It is true surround.

 

I also have some stereo discs which I can play using my 2.0 PRIRs.  But I can also play these using my 5.1 surround PRIRs, in which case the music only comes through the L and the R channel.

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