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Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 13

post #181 of 350

Thanks Jazzfan and Jlejle for the brilliant observation on released limitations of using the Realiser with this PRIR, very true indeed and observed the same thing (although you'd be surprised with the amp pairing the output that can be created with the system, but the issue is the room starts to get in the way, whereas in the headphones it remains linear to the measurements at the lower volume).

 

So the room has a real impact on these things.  the versions of quads that I have fire both front and back, which is why I have eggshell foam and sound panels behind them, but each speaker does have a different effect in the room given a couple particulars.  Left of the listening location has a pillar (and windows which are reflective), on the right is a hallway opening, and I'm sitting in the middle of the room.  Bass of course changes dramatically as I move around the room, and the HF's do too.  You'll get a kick out of the difference when I put a PRIR when sitting back only 1 foot and lowering my head by one foot.  When listening, I actively position my head and chair until it's optimal.  I need to do the same thing just before measurements based upon music to catch the same sweet spot.  The out of phase comment is interesting.  It's definitely connected accurately, but of course can't rule out an internal wiring phase issue (whether at time of manufacture or at the point of restoration).  I will admit the dispersion of the sound does suggest a phase issue worth looking into.  I'll experiment be changing the +/- at the speaker and see how it sounds.  Another experiment I may try is to add the 2nd pair of Quads I have in a T-shape behind the current pair.  While mentally this seems like a strange approach, I've heard from multiple Quad nuts that this can produce significantly extended bass and HF, although I don't know if my room will support it.  Fun experiment though.

 

Thanks again for the suggestions and will give the 5/7 channel a go as well.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlejle View Post


Hi silverlight,

Wow, what a sound comes with QUAD speakers!!! Better than all what I've heard before with Realiser!

Brightness, localisation, transparency are unbelievable!

I looked quickly into my measuring system: PRIR is out of phase (complete), but it is not a problem, it's electrostatic, I think.

Right speaker have a little different . frequency spectrum, a noticeable frequency fall-off between 14-17 kHz. A bass accentuation at L62/R55 Hz +10dB should be room resonance effect, have a look at this. S/N L81/R32dB is very good at this recording level.

The auditions I've made with master recordings in 96kHz with jazz/classical bass, cello, percussions and drums at very high levels (jazzfan you are so right!!!) are breathtaking (no way with electrostatic normally)!!!

Please, make a 5 and 7 channel setup, if possible. Thanks.
 

Man!

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post #182 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlight View Post

So I just posted my first PRIR trial run with the Quad 57 setup.  In comparing to the speaker setup (using the BHSE+009's) I find the HF's are not quite as transparent as they are with the speakers, the bass is a less controlled sounding, but it certainly gives a very good sense of the imaging (based upon personal listening preferences and a good match for my ears of course, it's so far my favorite PRIR for 2 ch music as I flip back and forth between presets).  However there's a certain spatial and presence "magic" that's very subtle but impactful I'm not quite yet getting with the PRIR.  I'll take another few runs at it next several days to see if I can improve on it, and then also take measurements from another position or two which as mentioned earlier has a pretty big impact and is fun to experiment with.  The other thing I should caveat, is that I've found some of the other PRIR's to sound like I'm listening through short tubes at the end of my ears (i.e., an echo like listening through a toilet paper roll) -- assuming this is a hearing differential / mic placement differential between those of us taking recordings, so a definitie "YMMV" warning :)

 

silverlight, this is the most impressive PRIR I've heard so far!  I thought the Magico Q3's had great impact and immediacy, and allowed me to the speakers rather than the room.  Going from the Magico to your PRIR, I'm able to hear the music with substantially less room acoustics/echo.

 

The only drawback I've noticed is that bass impact for some songs (like the thump of drums, good bass guitar, etc.), while there, feels like they lack volume.  It's kind of like the difference of the SR007 with a lesser amp, then jumping to the BHSE.  The detail and texture is there, but the impact feels more 2D than 3D.  Is that the general character of the Quad 57?  I'm noticing it on tracks like Anberlin's "Godspeed" (around 0:13-16).  The weird thing is that the beginning of Muse's "Uprising" and Karmin's "Brokenhearted" sound really good.  It seems to vary a lot track-to-track.

 

Killswitch Engage's "Self Revolution" has awesome detail with the guitars.  Normally "Self Revolution" is a congested mess on most dynamic headphones.  Similar experience with Animals As Leaders' "CAFO".

 

Grumiaux and du Pre sound awesome.  I'm really loving this with the Alban Berg Quartett's Ravel quartet.  There's awesome separation between the instruments, overall positioning, and detail.  It's doing really great things with instrumental music and vocalists.

 

Are you running a subwoofer with your Quads?

 

This is a really awesome PRIR and I think a lot of us are very thankful that you've shared it with us :) I can only imagine the real thing is that much better.


Edited by Elysian - 9/20/12 at 1:09pm
post #183 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post

The only drawback I've noticed is that bass impact for some songs (like the thump of drums, good bass guitar, etc.), while there, feels like they lack volume.  It's kind of like the difference of the SR007 with a lesser amp, then jumping to the BHSE.  The detail and texture is there, but the impact feels more 2D than 3D.  Is that the general character of the Quad 57?  I'm noticing it on tracks like Anberlin's "Godspeed" (around 0:13-16).  The weird thing is that the beginning of Muse's "Uprising" and Karmin's "Brokenhearted" sound really good.  It seems to vary a lot track-to-track.

...

 

Are you running a subwoofer with your Quads?

 

 

@Elysian - you're perception of the difference in bass response with these speakers is accurate.  This is the difference between woofers and electrostatic.  The Quads don't exhibit the tight, deep controlled bass vs dynamic speakers but can still sound reasonable good (although the PRIR is not quite as good in the bass response relative to what I'm getting in the room.  could be where I took the measurements from vs where I normally sit... this needs to be optimized for relative to the room setup.  I need to do some real experimenting on speaker positioning and seating to find the right balance - 1/2" moves make a big difference).  For some types of music it doesn't matter, for other types it does - IMO some recordings overemphasize the bass response as a result of mixing or mic placement relative to a natural response curve, but it really all depends on personal preference (I really enjoy deep punchy bass sometimes for fun as it can be energizing, I just can't endure it for too long w/out getting a headache).

 

In terms of subwoofer, the Quad pro's tell me it's pretty hard to pair one and few have had great success b/c the speed difference between the stat panels can be quite noticeable vs a sub, so I haven't looked into it yet.  I'm also in a NYC apartment and while the listening position may not be saturated in bass, as I walk out of the room I REALLY hear it so if I had another 10-15 hz of range I think I might get an eviction notice...    I will do the experimenting of hooking up another pair in series to see what happens with the bass response.

post #184 of 350

@Jlejle - u the man! I checked the system tonight.  The speakers are connected to the correct terminals, however I hooked up my Perfectwave DAC which has phase adjustment on the remote and flipped back and forth, and while not nearly as pronounced as I've heard in my other systems in the past when polarity is reversed (prob b/c electrostatic), definitely out of phase.  The only thing I suspect is the way the speakers were configured.  I purchased a set of four panels that are meant to be setup up in a stacked format (with the bottom pair upside down so that the terminals are next to the top speakers), and I did notice panel numbers taped on each (1 through 4) when I received them.  I just randomly installed a couple of them onto the new Mapleshade stands and went from there.  In any event, imaging and bass are both better.  So I'll get another PRIR done and we'll go from there!   beerchug.gif

post #185 of 350

Hi silverlight,

sorry about your "nightwork", but you are really a hard working, excellent documenting troubleshooter-solver!!!

Doggedness in solving technical problems is apparently not only an inherent nature of mine (sometimes not a really asked for or desired quality ... if work comes up).

I be very much excited hearing the surround version.

Jürgen


 

post #186 of 350

I'm still having problems playing these files.  I can play Sasha, the aix, the msms, the egyptian theater, and a few others.  But I can't play the quad, the montanas, the acapaella, the scala, the peak.  Those files simply give me no sound at all, even though they load.  I'm doing the same thing with each file -- erasing the preset, etc.  Anybody have any clue why I can use some of these files but not others?  I have a pre-HDMI unit, but I don't see how that would affect it.  Really am bummed that I can't hear the quads. . . .help?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

My non-playable files show up on the computer, show up on the card, and can be transferred to the realizer.   They can be moved to the P buttons.  They just don't work once they get there. Some, when I hit the left button, give error messages for several channels. Some, particularly the two channels (PEAK and Spharon) show nothing wrong at all; they just don't make any noise.

post #187 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

I'm still having problems playing these files.  I can play Sasha, the aix, the msms, the egyptian theater, and a few others.  But I can't play the quad, the montanas, the acapaella, the scala, the peak.  Those files simply give me no sound at all, even though they load.  I'm doing the same thing with each file -- erasing the preset, etc.  Anybody have any clue why I can use some of these files but not others?  I have a pre-HDMI unit, but I don't see how that would affect it.  Really am bummed that I can't hear the quads. . . .help?

 


Are you on Windows or Mac?

 

In Windows, you can use a checksum tool just to make sure the files you are copying onto the SD card are intact.

 

For Silverlight's Quad PRIR, here's the MD5 checksum:

c4f1a2b5b5f8f1edcc15c3cd86835ba0

 

I used this free Windows tool to generate the checksum:

http://www.winmd5.com/

 

I would check the file directly off the SD card.

 

If you want checksums for the other PRIR's let me know which ones.

post #188 of 350

silverlight: Thank you for the detailed reply to my impressions.  Very interesting comparing notes with you, and I value getting your feedback since I've seen in your previous posts that you have a lot of familiarity with gear that I've either been interested in or own.

 

The interesting thing I've noticed after listening to your Quad PRIR over two nights is that they sound closer to headphones than speakers.  The imaging and articulation is fantastic, but interestingly enough, the depth of the images doesn't sound as pronounced as the non-Quad PRIRs I've heard.  I'm also getting some extra emphasis in the midbass (reminds me of the SR007MK2 vs SR009 (or even the MK1)).  I personally don't mind it since I like the MK2s.  I wonder if that very forward/headphone-like character is an intrinsic attribute of the Quads, or is more attributable to the positioning.

 

I was just curious about the sub since I heard another person's setup who only listens to classical, and it was really cool getting a sense of what the sub does for string bass, timpani, etc.  Can definitely understand why it might not be a good idea, now knowing your living situation!

post #189 of 350

Thanks, darinf.  I'm on a mac.  I just got the following MD6 checksum for Silverlight's Quad PRIR:  e85fb0783e61fd7a8ad2596f3a0bf172.  Obviously different from the checksum you cite.  I have absolutely no clue what that means, but perhaps you or someone else does.

 

The realiser shows all the details of the file and shows (via the front lights) that it's two-channel. It just won't play, like half of the others. . . .

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


Are you on Windows or Mac?

 

In Windows, you can use a checksum tool just to make sure the files you are copying onto the SD card are intact.

 

For Silverlight's Quad PRIR, here's the MD5 checksum:

c4f1a2b5b5f8f1edcc15c3cd86835ba0

 

I used this free Windows tool to generate the checksum:

http://www.winmd5.com/

 

I would check the file directly off the SD card.

 

If you want checksums for the other PRIR's let me know which ones.

post #190 of 350

I wonder if your Mac has forced a file structure onto your SD card, making the Realiser read things out of sync?

 

My recommend would be to reformat your SD card so that it's blank, then try again.  If that doesn't work, try it on a PC, and with a new SD card.

post #191 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

Thanks, darinf.  I'm on a mac.  I just got the following MD6 checksum for Silverlight's Quad PRIR:  e85fb0783e61fd7a8ad2596f3a0bf172.  Obviously different from the checksum you cite.  I have absolutely no clue what that means, but perhaps you or someone else does.

 

The realiser shows all the details of the file and shows (via the front lights) that it's two-channel. It just won't play, like half of the others. . . .

 


I don't have a way to generate an MD6 checksum.

 

But you can check the MD5 checksum on a Mac:

http://osxdaily.com/2009/10/13/check-md5-hash-on-your-mac/

 

The Realiser will not even ready the SD card if it was formatted any other way than FAT. So I am not sure if the Mac is causing card format problems. I also think it's unlikely that the Mac could be altering the file in any way during the copy process. But, just to be safe, I would try a different SD card if you have one.

post #192 of 350

Okay, just posted up another PRIR for the Quad setup. 

 

[Note:  After more experimentation, I have narrowed down the phase inversion to either the topology of the amp in how it operates relative to how I was using the inputs, or potentially a wiring error on one of the upgraded inputs I was using.  Funnily enough, the turntable was always in phase (which is why I hadn't picked it up before b/c I hadn't listened to music when taking the first measurement and wasn't listening to a digital source), but the input was out of phase for the "CD input" I was using for the Realiser.  Now to be fair the amp manufacturer specifically indicated not to use the multiple sources when using the "Direct" input I use for the the turntable (which bypasses the switching system / pre function in the amp and improves transparency and plays through no matter what is selected on the pre function) - when I moved the Realiser over to the Direct input the phase was corrected, so not the speaker after all.  I can certainly run phase tones through each input with the direct engaged and not engaged to isolate this phenomenon, but wanted to get a better PRIR first]

 

Re the PRIR, I have done it sitting a little closer to the speakers for a near-field effect.  The bass response in this part of the room is a little better and I enjoy when listening to the system the wide soundstage it throws yet very focused vocals in the center, etc (even though it's near range, the soundstage in the room is huge w great separation and good focus, but a couple notes on that below).   I should mention, Jlejle, the two speakers categorically do not share the same response curve, and anyone listening to the PRIR and then isolating L vs R channel will be able to clearly hear this (I've just been running test tones through them and sweeps to listen to the differences, not using measuring equipment).  In the room, with both speakers engaged the SQ is wonderful, but since I have 2 "spares", I will substitute them in to each of the right channel and left channel to see if one of them is closer to a "norm" and then pair the closest and best sounding matches (and send the others off for some work).  So in the meantime check out this PRIR, and you'll definitely hear the phase difference.   Its fun to have both presets loaded and be able to switch back and forth, there are some recordings I have that are clearly out of phase that I like, and using the out of phase preset clearly produces the correct sound.

 

Last note related more to the A8.  Having the benefit of being able to take more time to compare the PRIR+headphone vs speaker/room differences, while I'm hearing some tonal differences that I'm guessing can be corrected for using the manual HPEQ adjustments, there is without a doubt information missing in the headphone playback vs the speaker setup.  it's the very high frequency extension and clarity, and subtle spatial information.  It's the differences I'd attribute to a tier 2 DAC and a tier 1 DAC.  Through headphones the subtle spatial / recorded room detail is flatter and less detailed and the HF's have slightly digital edge/hash to it vs the bypass SQ.  I'm using HDMI input in both cases to avoid the ADC step, so I'm wondering if this difference is (a) limitation of the in-ear microphones when taking measurements, or (b) digital artifacts from the A8's processing.  I'm fairly sure it's not limitations with the BHSE+009's b/c I've heard absolutely stunning SQ from this combination that when listening to it directly from a good DAC generally exceeds anything I ever hear via the A8 (transparency, coherency, clarity of attack and decay, separation, etc.). [and for what it's worth, did a detailed electrostatic headphone amp comparison last week w/ all my amps, as well as a KGSSHV and a prototype amp of a new offering, and the BHSE had a healthy SQ margin over the rest of the pack].  Having said that it's really impressive what's being done and if I wasn't able to sit there listening (both critically and casually) back and forth for an hour or two, I would not have picked up on the subtleties.

 

@Elysian - yes, this setup does have more of a headphone feel to it than most dynamic setups you sit well back from, but that's probably my personal preference coming through in terms of wanting to be "in" the music environment vs sitting well back from it.  You can certainly achieve a more objective distant experience with these speakers by sitting back, and in fact when I sit much farther back in the room it will sound more traditional (and actually given the room a more linear bass response when closer to the rear wall).  The challenge is that the Mapleshade stands I use while adding a lot of solidity to the speakers (and thereby improving the bass meaningfully and HF extension as well), they made the mistake IMO in their design of creating too much of an upward angle for the speaker which forces the listener to have to sit closer to be in the sweet spot for imaging/accuracy and maximum detail.  There have been other stand designs which raise the speaker and make it perpendicular to the listener, and also other feet that have a slight angle, both allow you to sit back further.  Will experiment more with this stuff over time as I just got the system setup.

post #193 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


I don't have a way to generate an MD6 checksum.

 

But you can check the MD5 checksum on a Mac:

http://osxdaily.com/2009/10/13/check-md5-hash-on-your-mac/

 

The Realiser will not even ready the SD card if it was formatted any other way than FAT. So I am not sure if the Mac is causing card format problems. I also think it's unlikely that the Mac could be altering the file in any way during the copy process. But, just to be safe, I would try a different SD card if you have one.

Oops I mistyped -- that was the MD5 checksum -- and as you see, I get a completely different value. I will try another SD card -- but of course some of the files on that SD card work just fine, so who knows.

 

(Silverlight, sorry to be troubleshooting in the middle of the quad talk -- I'm just trying to get in on the quad talk!)

post #194 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by West726 View Post

Oops I mistyped -- that was the MD5 checksum -- and as you see, I get a completely different value. I will try another SD card -- but of course some of the files on that SD card work just fine, so who knows.

 

(Silverlight, sorry to be troubleshooting in the middle of the quad talk -- I'm just trying to get in on the quad talk!)


OK, that makes more sense that you can generate the MD5 checksum. Can you post the checksum for a file that does work? Post the PRIR description so I know which file it is and the checksum to see if it matches what I have.

 

Clearly if the checksums are different, then the files are different.

post #195 of 350

Is there a Magico PRIR on dropbox?  Missing it somehow.

 

Stewart

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