Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 12

post #166 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiritz View Post

Thank very much, silverlight.  I tried this PRIR out and I think it's a very good one.  I still prefer revelation over any of the others.  I think it beats the 5.1 I made at AIX.

 

But since I work not far from Audio High, I wondered if they are still open to doing calibrations (for a fee).  Is that what you did?  I already have a calibration from them of their Peak system.  It's a bit odd, for some reason.  Seems deadened or cut off on the upper end.  On the other hand, the bass and mid-bass are quite good to my ears.

 

I had purchased my Realiser through Audio High earlier in the year and they shipped it to me in NY, so as my "dealer" they were happy to do the measurements.  Jez is a really nice guy I'm sure if it doesn't impact their customers they'd be willing to do it (worst case for a small fee).  A great shop and one I'd work with as a customer again.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #167 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

To be honest, I am really surprised about Ivan's system. After I let him know about the phase problems, I am pretty sure he double checked all his connections. With a digital home theater system, there aren't a lot of places to get the signal out of phase. All you need to check is the speaker wires for each channel right? I can't think of anywhere else phase could be changed. I suppose it's possible the drives in the speakers could be wired out of phase, but that would make the speaker sound noticeably bad.

 

darin:

Thanks for posting your PRIRs!  A friend sent me your Acoustic Zen PRIR and I'm loving it.  I haven't turned on my Realiser on in months since getting my BHSE, but now I think I may be using my Realiser much more frequently :)  What kind of speakers were part of the demo room?  I'm liking this PRIR enough that I may end up putting an Acoustic Zen speaker set on my speaker wishlist, especially after reading what a great guy Ivan is.

 

jlejle:

Your posts have been super informative and really interesting to read.  Please continue to post your findings, as I've found your insight to be really great.

 

I don't have access to the dropbox yet, but just out of curiosity, does jlejle's revised Acoustic Zen PRIR fix the out-of-phase issue?  I'm not sure if the PRIR I have is the original or modified one.

 

That said, I'm still enjoying it quite a bit, and it's probably my favorite PRIR.  It has great immediacy and impact, whereas all the other PRIRs I've heard and taken always feels like I'm listening to the room as much as I'm listening to the speakers.  I'm not sure if the AcousticZen PRIR is so great because the speakers are amazing or just a really meticulous attention to detail for room acoustic, but I'll assume it's both :)

 

Thanks for continuing to carry the torch, guys.  After struggling to find a PRIR I've liked, I wasn't sure what to do with my Realiser, but now I'm loving the AcousticZen PRIR through my Ref2+BHSE+SR007 rig.  I'll have to try the HE6 tomorrow.

post #168 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post

 

darin:

Thanks for posting your PRIRs!  A friend sent me your Acoustic Zen PRIR and I'm loving it.  I haven't turned on my Realiser on in months since getting my BHSE, but now I think I may be using my Realiser much more frequently :)  What kind of speakers were part of the demo room?  I'm liking this PRIR enough that I may end up putting an Acoustic Zen speaker set on my speaker wishlist, especially after reading what a great guy Ivan is.

 

jlejle:

Your posts have been super informative and really interesting to read.  Please continue to post your findings, as I've found your insight to be really great.

 

I don't have access to the dropbox yet, but just out of curiosity, does jlejle's revised Acoustic Zen PRIR fix the out-of-phase issue?  I'm not sure if the PRIR I have is the original or modified one.

 

That said, I'm still enjoying it quite a bit, and it's probably my favorite PRIR.  It has great immediacy and impact, whereas all the other PRIRs I've heard and taken always feels like I'm listening to the room as much as I'm listening to the speakers.  I'm not sure if the AcousticZen PRIR is so great because the speakers are amazing or just a really meticulous attention to detail for room acoustic, but I'll assume it's both :)

 

Thanks for continuing to carry the torch, guys.  After struggling to find a PRIR I've liked, I wasn't sure what to do with my Realiser, but now I'm loving the AcousticZen PRIR through my Ref2+BHSE+SR007 rig.  I'll have to try the HE6 tomorrow.


Once you get access to the Dropbox account, you will see that all my PRIR's have a text file with a system description so you know what you're listening to.

 

Here's the info from the Acoustic Zen PRIR:

 

Quote:
Acoustic Zen System - http://www.acousticzen.com
PRIR MEasurement done on July 30, 2012 by Darin Fong

2.0 Channel System:

Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers - http://acousticzen.com/crescendo.html - $16,000
Triode TRX-M845 monoblock tube amps - $20,000/pair
Triode TRX-1 tube preamp - $3450.00
Acoustic Zen Absolute 75 digital cable ($480 for a 3' length).
Acoustic Zen Gargantuan-series power cords ($1040 for a 6' length)

The actual system measured is pictured here:
http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/996
http://www.audioreference.co.nz/news/totally-tubular-triodes-all-new-trx-m845-se-mono-blocks-ces-2012
http://acousticzen.com/news.html

I generated a 7.0 PRIR from their 2.0 channel system.

I would encourage you to try to hear the Acoustic Zen speakers someday. They really are something special. That may be part of why you are enjoying that PRIR so much. They just demoed this exact system at a HiFi show in San Francisco. Did you go? If you ever make it down to San Diego, let me know and I can arrange a private demo at the Acoustic Zen factory.

 

The listening room was just a separate room in the Acoustic Zen warehouse/factory. It had minimal acoustic treatment, but the system sounded really good regardless.

 

With the Acoustic Zen PRIR, apparently the whole system was out of phase? Not with each channel, but the system as a whole. I am still skeptical if you can hear "absolute phase", but according to jlejle, it is apparent in the impulse response of that PRIR.

 

To be honest, I find myself going back to the Audio Revelation PRIR that I uploaded. I think that sound is even better than the Acoustic Zen PRIR. You will see that one once you get access to the Dropbox account.

 

Anyway, I haven't had much time lately to find more "victims" to let me come and do measurements, but once I get more time, I will try to get some more.

 

Glad someone is enjoying my PRIR's. I wish I could hear them on a BHSE+SR007 rig! On my 323A/407 rig it sounds really good. I have never heard any higher end Stax though. (Maybe I shouldn't.)

 

-Darin


Edited by darinf - 9/18/12 at 1:43am
post #169 of 350

Hi darin/silverlight/jazzjan,

I'm back relaxed online, first, thanks for the great PRIR postings!

Recordings from anechoic studios are very good for comparing and working, but such rooms like yours with the right "feeling" are much better to evalute or enjoy music. It's tight that you find the time to do such professional PRIRs and share them with us!!!

I've had a look at the "complete out-of-phase problem":


I've figured and tested out, that only eletrical impulses with high levels, which generates great air-compression pressure in closed speaker cabinets deforms the membrane surface and, for this reason, modify the impulse characteristic sending out into the room. Most affected was the frequency range which transfers mechanical energy: < 1 kHz.

The test was made with gas-thight thick metal cabinet full range speaker Freitag 5522 1W/24Ohm/0,1-15kHz, at 3W RMS with switched DC-signal. The cheap but very good micro-speaker "Freitag" survived the torture, was 200% overloaded, a tick before the coil was hooked on. Recorded with studio condenser mic in nearfield distance.

Ok, not representative or scientific at all, but the recorded analyzer tracks showing this result: have a look at the wiring and system overall phase alignment!!!

The critical question is: can you hear this in "real life"?

yes or no, depending on music signal with high impulse amount like drums or cymbals or anything else like this. You must have at last two systems parallel working in A-B comparsion to hear the artefacts. If there is some time in future, I will look at this more precisely.

With Realiser, you use a "frozen" level image, which can not brocken by mechanical events (hope so ... a SHARK processor is working in Realiser, hmmm). A benefit for using wide level range (frozen level, not shark), but only at the recorded level the real system is reproduced exactly.

Enjoy complete out of phase PRIRs!

Bye

post #170 of 350

I just finished putting together a 2ch analog setup which I'm really happy with.  Still fine tuning room acoustics and speaker placement, but the sound is very different than the high quality dynamic speakers I've either owned or spent time with.  It's a pair of Quad ESL 57s driven by an amp I'm really pleased with, the ASR Emitter II Exclusive with battery power (it's the same pairing that David Chesky uses from what I'm told for playback).  A little like switching from dynamic headphones to electrostatic headphones in terms of the sound character (a good thing IMO).  Although in this case where you sit dramatically changes the listening experience and the soundstage.  So I plan on taking a few different PRIR's using different seating positions and hopefully others can make use of them as well.  Plan would be at least one where the sound stage is wider and one where it's more focused directly in front of you as depending upon how a recording was mic'd I've found one position better than the other and vice versa, and for the "out of head" feeling, the former may be more interesting for headphone listeners).  Will test it in-room with the BHSE and 009's to see how close it matches.  Hopefully will get it done next few days and will post to the Dropbox drive.
 


Edited by silverlight - 9/18/12 at 1:49pm
post #171 of 350

A true classic matched with an equally unique amplifier.  Congratulations!  Looking forward with great anticipation to experiencing the new PRIRs.  Thanks in advance for sharing.

post #172 of 350

The Magico PRIR is even better than the Acoustic Zen!  It's my new favorite, and I was listening to it all night.

 

Really looking forward to hearing your PRIR, silverlight.  That's a very impressive amp.  It seems like a PRIR would be especially ideal for the Quads, given how they may be even more picky about positioning than the Maggies!

post #173 of 350

So I just posted my first PRIR trial run with the Quad 57 setup.  In comparing to the speaker setup (using the BHSE+009's) I find the HF's are not quite as transparent as they are with the speakers, the bass is a less controlled sounding, but it certainly gives a very good sense of the imaging (based upon personal listening preferences and a good match for my ears of course, it's so far my favorite PRIR for 2 ch music as I flip back and forth between presets).  However there's a certain spatial and presence "magic" that's very subtle but impactful I'm not quite yet getting with the PRIR.  I'll take another few runs at it next several days to see if I can improve on it, and then also take measurements from another position or two which as mentioned earlier has a pretty big impact and is fun to experiment with.  The other thing I should caveat, is that I've found some of the other PRIR's to sound like I'm listening through short tubes at the end of my ears (i.e., an echo like listening through a toilet paper roll) -- assuming this is a hearing differential / mic placement differential between those of us taking recordings, so a definitie "YMMV" warning :)

 

Also for fun, I meant to post this a little while back, if anyone is looking for an all-in-one portability solution for the Realiser/Stax amp/headphones/cables/etc., the Nanuk cases (available fairly inexpensively on amazon) make a great solution.

 

 


Edited by silverlight - 9/19/12 at 8:42pm
post #174 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlight View Post

So I just posted my first PRIR trial run with the Quad 57 setup.  In comparing to the speaker setup (using the BHSE+009's) I find the HF's are not quite as transparent as they are with the speakers, the bass is a less controlled sounding, but it certainly gives a very good sense of the imaging (based upon personal listening preferences and a good match for my ears of course, it's so far my favorite PRIR for 2 ch music as I flip back and forth between presets).  However there's a certain spatial and presence "magic" that's very subtle but impactful I'm not quite yet getting with the PRIR.  I'll take another few runs at it next several days to see if I can improve on it, and then also take measurements from another position or two which as mentioned earlier has a pretty big impact and is fun to experiment with.  The other thing I should caveat, is that I've found some of the other PRIR's to sound like I'm listening through short tubes at the end of my ears (i.e., an echo like listening through a toilet paper roll) -- assuming this is a hearing differential / mic placement differential between those of us taking recordings, so a definitie "YMMV" warning :)

 

Also for fun, I meant to post this a little while back, if anyone is looking for an all-in-one portability solution for the Realiser/Stax amp/headphones/cables/etc., the Nanuk cases (available fairly inexpensively on amazon) make a great solution.

 

 

Thanks for uploading. Looking forward to testing out your PRIR.

 

What size case is that? My Stax 323 wouldn't fit in there though. I would need a bigger case. I've been looking for a good way to carry all my gear to various locations for PRIR measurements.

 

I finally go the owner of a local hi-fi shop to let me come in and do some PRIR's. They have about 9 or 10 high end listening rooms including a 50 seat "home" theater room. I think I am going to focus on their higher end, better sounding two channel setups though. Now I just have to find time to go.

post #175 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlight View Post

 

Also for fun, I meant to post this a little while back, if anyone is looking for an all-in-one portability solution for the Realiser/Stax amp/headphones/cables/etc., the Nanuk cases (available fairly inexpensively on amazon) make a great solution.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that. I was considering how I would transport my set. Is your case the 930?

post #176 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlight View Post

So I just posted my first PRIR trial run with the Quad 57 setup.  In comparing to the speaker setup (using the BHSE+009's) I find the HF's are not quite as transparent as they are with the speakers, the bass is a less controlled sounding, but it certainly gives a very good sense of the imaging (based upon personal listening preferences and a good match for my ears of course, it's so far my favorite PRIR for 2 ch music as I flip back and forth between presets).  However there's a certain spatial and presence "magic" that's very subtle but impactful I'm not quite yet getting with the PRIR.  I'll take another few runs at it next several days to see if I can improve on it, and then also take measurements from another position or two which as mentioned earlier has a pretty big impact and is fun to experiment with.  The other thing I should caveat, is that I've found some of the other PRIR's to sound like I'm listening through short tubes at the end of my ears (i.e., an echo like listening through a toilet paper roll) -- assuming this is a hearing differential / mic placement differential between those of us taking recordings, so a definitie "YMMV" warning :)

Thanks again for posting.

 

I tried the PRIR and the sound quality of the speakers is very good to my ears. I was even surprised by the amount of bass from those speakers.

 

However, the localization is totally off for me and my ears. I am getting a lot of sound in my head as opposed to coming from the speaker locations. Even when I isolate one speaker at a time, I sort of get the sound coming from the speaker location, but then I get a weird delayed echo from the opposite ear which also contributes to some of the sound coming from my head.

 

It's very strange. I have not heard such an effect from any of the other PRIR's on the Dropbox account.

 

I am not saying that there's anything wrong with your measurement. My ears must be a lot different than yours. That's too bad. I always wanted a pair of Quads!

 

I don't know if you have ever tried, but it's not too difficult once you get the hang of it to make a 5 or 7 channel PRIR from a two channel system. Could be cool to watch a movie with 7 Quad speakers!

post #177 of 350

@silverlight,

 

Once again, many thanks for sharing.

 

What was immediately apparent, for me, was the smoothness of the midrange.  Beyond that, the overall tonality was also good. 

 

But 30 seconds into my listening session I had an epiphany.  I'm not sure if you've discovered this facet of the Realiser, but one unexpected and extremely useful benefit, in my view, is that the Realiser allows for playback of your "virtual" Quads at levels never before imaginable for fear of arcing the stators.  As I was listening, I thought to myself, these are Quads like I've never heard before.  The dynamics are remarkable.

No longer are you constrained by the polite listening levels of Quads of the past.  Whole new worlds of listening enjoyment await - full orchestral crescendos, rock, metal, dubstep, electronica, or any number of other genres you may prefer, can now be enjoyed at the levels they were meant to be played, on one of the most coherent and transparent speakers ever made.  This is truly outstanding!
 

With your personal PRIRs, you are about to experience the classic Quads like no one else has in the world.  Again, congratulations. 

Thank you silverlight for sharing, and thank you Smyth for a remarkable piece of technology.

 

Now I need to get some rest.


Edited by jazzfan - 9/20/12 at 7:53am
post #178 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by YCH View Post

 

Thanks for posting that. I was considering how I would transport my set. Is your case the 930?


YCH - the case I'm using is the 945 which is why there is a lot of extra room, the 940 would easily work too IMO and probably be ideal.  The 930 would probably be tight, I have a 925 I use for camera equipment and it would be way too small for the gear both surface area and depth (930 possibly if headphones are being carried separate which may be a solution too to save space).

post #179 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

Thanks again for posting.

 

I tried the PRIR and the sound quality of the speakers is very good to my ears. I was even surprised by the amount of bass from those speakers.

 

However, the localization is totally off for me and my ears. I am getting a lot of sound in my head as opposed to coming from the speaker locations. Even when I isolate one speaker at a time, I sort of get the sound coming from the speaker location, but then I get a weird delayed echo from the opposite ear which also contributes to some of the sound coming from my head.

 

It's very strange. I have not heard such an effect from any of the other PRIR's on the Dropbox account.

 

I am not saying that there's anything wrong with your measurement. My ears must be a lot different than yours. That's too bad. I always wanted a pair of Quads!

 

I don't know if you have ever tried, but it's not too difficult once you get the hang of it to make a 5 or 7 channel PRIR from a two channel system. Could be cool to watch a movie with 7 Quad speakers!

 

@Darin - I know I have different ears than others here b/c of the funny effects I get listening to some of the other PRIR's.  Maybe I'll try to take measurements w a friend or my wife and see if the results improve for others.

 

I took this first measurement a little closer to the speakers which in the room gives you a "first row" total immersion sound.  In the room vocalists are clearly localized in front of you in the center (not at the speakers), the speakers disappear and the sound is all around you.  If you sit back a foot or two increased localization occurs and it's more like "row 10" listening.  I have a hallway in the middle of the right wall, and when you sit back in the latter location the bass will start to roll off although the tone of the mids doesn't change.  What's really unique about these speakers is the amazing coherence and tone in the low through upper mids where most of the music is and no doubt what drew me to them more than any other system when I was at an audio show in NYC 5 or 6 months ago.  The other unique characteristic is that the bass is actually better than you'd expect (albeit missing the bottom octave) but it does this without moving air like a dynamic speaker.  You've all heard dynamic speakers in rooms tangibly moving the air when listening and you physically "feel it", and you even hear this in amplified concerts.  However I don't really associate this (appropriately) with un-amplified acoustic performances (b/c it generally doesn't occur naturally with a few exceptions based on instruments like the double bass or timpani, and requires the right venue acoustics).  Electrostatics do a very nice job of replicating this, and so the brain I believe at some level buys into this sound - on the contrary, I get fatigued listening to dynamic speakers, or get distracted and find something else to do, start left brain analyzing and thinking about how to improve the sound or make tweaks, or start hopping around listening to different tracks in an ADD like manner.  When I listen to the Quads, all this goes away and I just find myself listening to music, even far more when it's analog/vinyl - the desire for "perfect" goes away b/c it just sounds real and I know I'm experiencing "music" like I did when I was younger spending countless hours in orchestra pits, listening to live performances in a local coffee shop, etc.  So on the speaker side of the equation for the first time I've lost any desire to "search" for better, to tweak or upgrade (other than perhaps moving the speakers around to fine tune), its just about the music.  The great thing about the Realiser is its ability to capture most and hopefully all of this with adjustments (the manual HPEQ adjustments, etc.).  When combining the Realiser with an iPad with uncompressed WAV files (and the HDMI adapter) and a small outboard DAC (I was using the Metrum Acoustics Octave last night with it and the iPad), was getting some really nice sound when hooking up to the 009's with a fairly portable package.  Well, I'll stop the rambling and will let you know when I get some additional measurements up.

post #180 of 350


Hi silverlight,

Wow, what a sound comes with QUAD speakers!!! Better than all what I've heard before with Realiser!

Brightness, localisation, transparency are unbelievable!

I looked quickly into my measuring system: PRIR is out of phase (complete), but it is not a problem, it's electrostatic, I think.

Right speaker have a little different . frequency spectrum, a noticeable frequency fall-off between 14-17 kHz. A bass accentuation at L62/R55 Hz +10dB should be room resonance effect, have a look at this. S/N L81/R32dB is very good at this recording level.

The auditions I've made with master recordings in 96kHz with jazz/classical bass, cello, percussions and drums at very high levels (jazzfan you are so right!!!) are breathtaking (no way with electrostatic normally)!!!

Please, make a 5 and 7 channel setup, if possible. Thanks.
 

Man!

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: High-end Audio Forum

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread