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Smyth SVS Realiser - PRIR Exchange Thread - Page 11

post #151 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlejle View Post

Hi community,

 

I've answered Jiang1202 by PM to avoid "forum overload" by technical stuff.

 

If anybody works with a daw and requires additional hints, please write me a PM.

 

Darin: these 4 hours are a good investment ...
 

 

why be afraid of that at all! we welcome that here! those who don't understand or are not interested will just gloss over it. the smyth realizer is not a product that casual audio listeners purchase anyway! please do continue to share

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #152 of 350

Hi Darin,

sorry,  there are some bad (or good) news from the "phase" front:

I figured out that in Ivan's House not the right channel was inverted: Left and Center channel are out of phase!
Analyse of WAV-files in editor, tests with white noise and square waves under A-B comparison with all channels reach the same result.


I've inverted the L and C channel with wave-editor and the correlation coefficient is at 0,9 and all sounds pretty good!

Seek and you shall find:

 

The excellent Acoustic Zen PRIR is complett out of phase! In this case there is no possibility to find this out in recording session with realiser. Please check out the signal chain of the audio system, if possible (use batterie for testing speaker polarisation). The amplifier chain may be involved ...

A correction of phase alignment by wave editor is possible, must use on both channels, see files in SVS response folder \\7.x\Ivan Pino 7.1. It will work, but it is not the real room image!

 

To your PM questions a short answer (more later):

 

I know that the subject matter is sometimes "dark matter" for nearly anybody with sparsely technical background ...  I will share all needed tricks to have fun with the realiser and impulse players, be patient!

 

Please remember: to follow the forum content costs me much time and tutorials will costs still more time ...

 

Bye for now!

 

post #153 of 350
Quote:

 

 

Please remember: to follow the forum content costs me much time and tutorials will costs still more time ...

 

Bye for now!

 

Thank you for being so generous with your time.  It's all very educational, and understandable that you can't bring all of us up to the level of your technical expertise without spending all your time on this forum!

post #154 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlejle View Post

Hi Darin,

sorry,  there are some bad (or good) news from the "phase" front:

I figured out that in Ivan's House not the right channel was inverted: Left and Center channel are out of phase!
Analyse of WAV-files in editor, tests with white noise and square waves under A-B comparison with all channels reach the same result.


I've inverted the L and C channel with wave-editor and the correlation coefficient is at 0,9 and all sounds pretty good!

Seek and you shall find:

 

The excellent Acoustic Zen PRIR is complett out of phase! In this case there is no possibility to find this out in recording session with realiser. Please check out the signal chain of the audio system, if possible (use batterie for testing speaker polarisation). The amplifier chain may be involved ...

A correction of phase alignment by wave editor is possible, must use on both channels, see files in SVS response folder \\7.x\Ivan Pino 7.1. It will work, but it is not the real room image!

 

To your PM questions a short answer (more later):

 

I know that the subject matter is sometimes "dark matter" for nearly anybody with sparsely technical background ...  I will share all needed tricks to have fun with the realiser and impulse players, be patient!

 

Please remember: to follow the forum content costs me much time and tutorials will costs still more time ...

 

Bye for now!

 


Thanks for all your work!

 

Wow, I guess I really have to be careful when doing the PRIR's. I just assumed that these high end systems are hooked up right. It's already somewhat time consuming to even get everything connected. But to then have to go through the whole system to check for phase, that would take forever in a 7.1 system. In the case with Ivan, he also had 4 subwoofers. I just don't feel comfortable going through their system that much. Oh well, I will have to go back to Ivan's some day.

 

To be honest, I am really surprised about Ivan's system. After I let him know about the phase problems, I am pretty sure he double checked all his connections. With a digital home theater system, there aren't a lot of places to get the signal out of phase. All you need to check is the speaker wires for each channel right? I can't think of anywhere else phase could be changed. I suppose it's possible the drives in the speakers could be wired out of phase, but that would make the speaker sound noticeably bad.

 

With Acoustic Zen, I am REALLY surprised. They are a speaker manufacturer and are constantly using test equipment to evaluate their speaker performance. It seems like they would recognize the speakers being out of phase right away.

 

To be honest, I have never really tested to see what out of phase or reversed polarity sounds like compared to proper phase. I can see how you can hear if the speakers are out of phase with each other, but if they are all out of phase, but in-phase with each other, is the sound noticeably different?

 

Oh well, live and learn. I am surprised Lorr never mentioned any procedure for checking phase or at least mentioning that it should be checked. He is SO meticulous.

 

-Darin

post #155 of 350

do any of you find the revelation1 to be too loud on the left side? the balance seems off in favor of the left.

post #156 of 350

Hi Darin,

This progress awaked my interest, I can't conseal that!

Smyth have a additional box for professionals to look at this problems in real time. Sure, the possibility to check phase alignment until recording PRIRs into realiser should be build in, as we'll be seen now.

Ivan can hear the out of phase problems not in any case:

to control this item using movies lead you to believe good phase alignment, because L, C, and R are well aligned each other and carries the most direct sound with high levels.

The LS, RS, LB and RB carries most time reverbs and effects in lower levels, which have sometimes undefined phase structures (this is a feature of reverbs at all!).

The leverage of side speakers phase to overall correlation decrease with the level of this speakers and their positions in the room. In many cases this speakers must be delayed to front systems or controlled by software to have fun on all positions in the room (or use wave front systems). Ivan should be check out his system with self measuring (pre-)amplifiers or PC software.

Not worry about Zen: really good sound!!!, I have found the inverting only by quickly scanning the files with editor ... I believe not, that the speakers are wrong wired ... some old class-A amplifiers can to such incredible things in signal chain or some dark-colored or good hidden switches on the front panel of expensive amplifiers ...

There is no difference for me in sound of reversed files ... but the real room could give a different answer ...

Problems with complete phase inverting occures as far as I can see only if someone use higer levels (it's ever malfunctioning, but you don't notice it).

This disturbs the wanted removal of rear oscillation of loudspeaker in closed systems, which is the reason of closing the speakers to avoid acoustical bypass. In best way aligned and oscillation-controlled speakers radiates nearly unbrocken spheric waves in dependence of wavelength and construction (like acoustic mass, pc or airpressure controlled menbranes). Hope anybody understand this ;-)

I think, Lorr Kramer knows, that this is not a big problem in home environment. For professional use, for instance outside broadcasting vans, you can buy the monitor bridge from Smyth people (look at manual).

Yes, Smyth people are really cool and smart (in Bangor/UK too, I've updated my realiser there to HDMI).

Jürgen

post #157 of 350
Heard a rumor today one of the online audio review sites is working on a review of the Realiser A8. If true, I can wait to read it.
post #158 of 350

Hi community,

I've placed the promised impulse response player instructions into SVS_simulations dropbox folder.

There is one version for the people working with digital audio workstations and another one for foobar2000 users.

They are still in process - feel free to improve or optimize them and give advices by PM.

Enjoy

PS
I take a vacation next weeks, so long!

post #159 of 350

I finally made the pilgrimage to studios in L.A., and had 5.1 and 7.1 PRIR measurements taken at AIX and Mi Casa.  It was a very enlightening experience.  For instance, I learned the THX 0 dB reference level (avg 85dB SPL) can be unbearably loud with some movies, and even reduced levels of 82-83 dB is more than sufficient to add the occasional "popcorn scattering" moment to your movie viewing experience.  If you have never been to a studio that produces 5.1/7.1 recordings, I would recommend going, for  the educational value alone.

With the addition of my AIX PRIRs, I believe the total count of individuals who have uploaded AIX PRIRs to Dropbox is now up to four.  It will be especially interesting to know if anyone, among this group, finds a PRIR similar to their own.  I'd like to understand what similarities or differences you experienced between the various the AIX PRIRs, so please send me a PM to discuss your results.

To everyone else, I hope you find a comparable PRIR.  Please post your experiences, if you do.  Enjoy.


Edited by jazzfan - 8/19/12 at 2:46pm
post #160 of 350

I just uploaded another PRIR: Jan Montana's System

 

A very interesting system. You can be the judge...(See the photos in the Dropbox folder. I just shot them with my point-and-shoot camera, so not great quality.)

 

On a relatively small budget, he has built his system by buying drivers from various sources, new and used. He then re-purposed cabinets that were given to him by various recording studios or friends who were throwing them out. From there he has tweaked his system over the years and uses a Behringer DCX2496 processor to perform all the crossover, EQ, room corrections, etc. in the digital domain.

 

I have to admit I was skeptical. Other people in the local community had told me I HAVE to hear this system to believe it. He has had lots of people audition his system including fairly prominent speaker manufacturers and engineers. Some speaker manufacturers said that his system is the best sounding home system they have ever heard. I don't know about that, but the sound he is getting is very impressive especially in a small room with the speakers tucked in a corner and against the wall, etc.

 

He doesn't believe in fancy cables, esoteric amplifiers, etc. If he can't hear the difference, he won't bother. It's not that he doesn't have the money, but he doesn't feel the need to waste any money on anything that will not have a significant positive impact on the sound. I asked him about speaker cable and her replied, "I use the finest zip cord that Radio Shack sells." (He has a garage full of fancy speaker cables and interconnects.) His whole system is based around the Behringer processor which sells for $349 new!

 

He definitely knows his stuff when it comes to hi-fi gear though.

 

Anyway, I hope you can hear well enough in this PRIR to evaluate his system.

 

Enjoy,

-Darin

post #161 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

I just uploaded another PRIR: Jan Montana's System

 

A very interesting system. You can be the judge...(See the photos in the Dropbox folder. I just shot them with my point-and-shoot camera, so not great quality.)

 

On a relatively small budget, he has built his system by buying drivers from various sources, new and used. He then re-purposed cabinets that were given to him by various recording studios or friends who were throwing them out. From there he has tweaked his system over the years and uses a Behringer DCX2496 processor to perform all the crossover, EQ, room corrections, etc. in the digital domain.

 

I have to admit I was skeptical. Other people in the local community had told me I HAVE to hear this system to believe it. He has had lots of people audition his system including fairly prominent speaker manufacturers and engineers. Some speaker manufacturers said that his system is the best sounding home system they have ever heard. I don't know about that, but the sound he is getting is very impressive especially in a small room with the speakers tucked in a corner and against the wall, etc.

 

He doesn't believe in fancy cables, esoteric amplifiers, etc. If he can't hear the difference, he won't bother. It's not that he doesn't have the money, but he doesn't feel the need to waste any money on anything that will not have a significant positive impact on the sound. I asked him about speaker cable and her replied, "I use the finest zip cord that Radio Shack sells." (He has a garage full of fancy speaker cables and interconnects.) His whole system is based around the Behringer processor which sells for $349 new!

 

He definitely knows his stuff when it comes to hi-fi gear though.

 

Anyway, I hope you can hear well enough in this PRIR to evaluate his system.

 

Enjoy,

-Darin


Due to time constraints, I did not have time to listen very much to the PRIR before leaving.

 

I did two measurements. One of  them, the gain was low, but the Realiser CAL said it was fine. The other, we turned up the gain. The one with lower gain seems to have better highs, but less bass. The higher gain sounds like it's lacking in the highs, not sure why, but the two PRIR's sound very different to me and nowhere near as much highs as my other PRIR's. Maybe I had microphone insertion problems. I think the mics were placed pretty well though. I take pictures of my ears with the mics inserted so I can check their placement without a mirror.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Maybe I'll have to try again. His system definitely didn't sound rolled off in the highs at all. It had tons of detail which I am not getting in the PRIR.

post #162 of 350

Darin - thanks very much for all the great PRIR postings!  Just catching up after having my Realiser packed up for a bit.  I do like the Revelation very much for 2 ch listening, fantastic extension with the speakers.  Really appreciate the text descriptions your doing for the systems you're taking PRIR's for.

 

I was traveling through CA this week and had measurements taken at Audio High with the KEF Blade speaker setup, and uploaded that file in my shared folder and photo of the system.  It's very interesting, to my ears, it sounds more clearly placed in terms of imaging (although less spacious) and fuller midrange than the Revelation PRIR (but of course no idea how much of the this is due to ear differences). When I get a few minutes I'm excited to go through the and take measurements to adjust for the slight tonal difference I hear between measurements and actual speaker playback, slight upper bass / lower midrange response difference.

 

Cheers!
 

post #163 of 350
Quote:

 

I was traveling through CA this week and had measurements taken at Audio High with the KEF Blade speaker setup, and uploaded that file in my shared folder and photo of the system.  I

 

Hi Silverlight,

 

I'd love to try these, but I don't see either the photo or PRIR in your folder.

post #164 of 350

Thanks Kiritz, I just updated the folder.  I had done it on my notebook but a few other larger files were sync'ing and didn't get to the PRIR folder before I had shut it down.  So should be up there now.  Let me know what you think!  I'm just starting to experiment with others' PRIR's and can without a doubt hear both system and mic placement/ear differentials so far (that latter of which I didn't appreciate in terms of impact).

post #165 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlight View Post

Thanks Kiritz, I just updated the folder.  I had done it on my notebook but a few other larger files were sync'ing and didn't get to the PRIR folder before I had shut it down.  So should be up there now.  Let me know what you think!  I'm just starting to experiment with others' PRIR's and can without a doubt hear both system and mic placement/ear differentials so far (that latter of which I didn't appreciate in terms of impact).

Thank very much, silverlight.  I tried this PRIR out and I think it's a very good one.  I still prefer revelation over any of the others.  I think it beats the 5.1 I made at AIX.

 

But since I work not far from Audio High, I wondered if they are still open to doing calibrations (for a fee).  Is that what you did?  I already have a calibration from them of their Peak system.  It's a bit odd, for some reason.  Seems deadened or cut off on the upper end.  On the other hand, the bass and mid-bass are quite good to my ears.

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