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Class D - heaven or hell ? - Page 5

post #61 of 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melomaniac View Post

 

ahem... yeah right. we also see the high ratio of advertising minutes to other "content" on our favorite tv channels (6 to 8 minutes per half hour now, and still rising), and yet we don't seem to dismiss all tv as corrupt, do we? you realize that google searches and gmail are free because they take your information and monetize it - which has not made a lot of people conclude that search is corrupt, that gmail should be avoided?

 

1. You clearly have a much higher opinion of FTA TV than I do. Dont even get me started on cable.

 

2. I kinda know how SEO works - we imported a specialist from the States and he did nothing but work with clients on the best ways of ensuring that their products appeared on Google's radar. Having had more than a few beers with the guy, I'm convinced that his trade is up there with used car sales, but if it pays the bills .... 

 

Dont even get me started on social media. Orwell would be rolling in his grave. 

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post #62 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

Interesting - saw a post from a DiYer claiming the modules are basically 'ready to go' out of the box - wire them up and find yourself a case. Given that I cant solder to save myself, this might be an oversimplification..... 

2K USD per module - not sure if we are talking identical part numbers though. If that is the case, its less than 5K for two monoblocks you have to assemble yourself - not exactly cheap, but definitely cheaper than the numbers you have listed. 

Where are you getting that price? Hypex wants under 300 EUR for any given module.

https://www.hypexshop.com/
post #63 of 133
Thread Starter 

I promise to dig it up later - real world stuff beckons !  eek.gif

post #64 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

 

Interesting - saw a post from a DiYer claiming the modules are basically 'ready to go' out of the box - wire them up and find yourself a case. Given that I cant solder to save myself, this might be an oversimplification..... 

 

2K USD per module - not sure if we are talking identical part numbers though. If that is the case, its less than 5K for two monoblocks you have to assemble yourself - not exactly cheap, but definitely cheaper than the numbers you have listed

N-Core NC400 modules are € 325, and two could be powered by one SMPS600 for € 180. So for $1052 USD + shipping + other small parts +  time and effort, one could have a stereo pair of Hypex N-Core.

 

Also, I'm still assuming that other OEMs will have N-Core products (with NC1200) at much lower prices than Mola-Mola.

 

Edit: I see that obobskivich has already linked to the webshop

post #65 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

 

I agree with everything up to the part about the Brit Hi-Fi mages. WHF is a joke - other than a few pretty pics, why bother ? - and Colloms is happy to dish the dirt on the others.

 

I wasn't talking about WHF. Hifi News + RR isn't bad and there are a few others that are decent, or at least better than Stereophile usually is. Motortrend is a joke, their writers are hacks, and its common knowledge that car/truck of the year has been for sale for decades.

post #66 of 133
Thread Starter 

I tried to find the DiYAudio page which had the numbers I quoted earlier, but that thread is a freakin monster. 406 pages and climbing fast.

 

I will say this - Bruno wasnt too far off when he named the company Hypex ..... 

 

(I also find it interesting that many of the reviewers who are in apparent awe of his mathetmatical prowess dont strike me as physics giants - I think we need to run those numbers past Stephen Hawking  wink.gif )

post #67 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

I tried to find the DiYAudio page which had the numbers I quoted earlier, but that thread is a freakin monster. 406 pages and climbing fast.

 

I will say this - Bruno wasnt too far off when he named the company Hypex ..... 

 

(I also find it interesting that many of the reviewers who are in apparent awe of his mathetmatical prowess dont strike me as physics giants - I think we need to run those numbers past Stephen Hawking  wink.gif )


Now you are simply slamming any attempt at marketing a product and making a living (even using measurements and an engineer's bragging) as being some dishonorable endeavor.  Minding that Bruno Putzeys uses and justifies using a 20kHz measurement bandwidth; 10 years ago, I wonder how many people really thought that self-oscillating Class-D was capable of such levels of performance. The measurements speak for themselves, and the patents and white papers spill most of the details. Just because some reviewers echo the copy provided by Hypex and forum posters at DiYAudio show some enthusiasm, the product and accomplishment of Ncore is not diminished.

post #68 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thune View Post


Now you are simply slamming any attempt at marketing a product and making a living (even using measurements and an engineer's bragging) as being some dishonorable endeavor.  Minding that Bruno Putzeys uses and justifies using a 20kHz measurement bandwidth; 10 years ago, I wonder how many people really thought that self-oscillating Class-D was capable of such levels of performance. The measurements speak for themselves, and the patents and white papers spill most of the details. Just because some reviewers echo the copy provided by Hypex and forum posters at DiYAudio show some enthusiasm, the product and accomplishment of Ncore is not diminished.

 

Aha ! I have you now, thune - I agree with you. If I was having a dig at anyone, it was the crowd at DiYAudio - just as Head-Fi has FOTM products, it would appear that the DiYers have the same affliction. Hypex can only put their product out there - like the LCD-3 and even the Stax phones, they rely one someone else to do the rest. If you read the 6Moons industry pieces on Hypex - much better than Srajan's usual efforts btw - it soon becomes apparent that they have the luxury of releasing product, and signing contracts, at their leisure. Hopefully, that means that the production versions of these amps will be everything the community has come to expect.

 

The whole sideshow about the magazines erupted when I tried to say that I very much doubt that JA could fake the measurements for NAD's flagship M2, an amp that NAD clearly intend to be a whole lot more than 'just an amp'. If you go back to the start of this thread, you will see some very dismissive comments, including something about Class D being crap based on someone's T-amp experience. There appears to be a lot of skepticism out there, and the fact that this is a NAD product probably doesnt help. I read something recently from an audiophile snob who claimed that NAD/Marantz/CA et al basically built gear that was worse than the consumer electronics at KMart because their gear 'pretended to be real hi-fi'. Its not the first time I've seen that attitude on various fora, and I can only imagine how such people would greet the news that NAD have a Class D 'flagship'. Tears, followed by laughter ? 

 

Ultimately, I don't give a hoot about the diehard 'Big A' audiophiles, but they tend to be very vocal on various boards. When I found Head-Fi a couple of years back, I bought a CA integrated and some basic bookshelves on the advice that 'amps have been the same for many years and probably wont change much in the next ten'. If we put NAD's marketing and the buzz around the NCore modules to one side, we could well be on the verge of a significant change, but that wont be without some serious opposition from the hair-shirt brigade with their Class A behemoths.  

 

At my end of the market, I'll probably just get another conventional integrated amp and leave it at that, but those with larger budgets should be excited about the prospect of anything resembling the Hypex vision, not dismissive and cynical. As always, just my 2 cents worth.


Edited by estreeter - 5/18/12 at 4:41am
post #69 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

1. You clearly have a much higher opinion of FTA TV than I do. Dont even get me started on cable.

 

2. I kinda know how SEO works - we imported a specialist from the States and he did nothing but work with clients on the best ways of ensuring that their products appeared on Google's radar. Having had more than a few beers with the guy, I'm convinced that his trade is up there with used car sales, but if it pays the bills .... 

 

Dont even get me started on social media. Orwell would be rolling in his grave. 

 

well, everyone loves to sneer at TV - and yet watches it nonetheless. I'm as cynical as anyone about the offerings from my several thousand cable channels, and as annoyed as anyone by the steep bill the monopolies collect for mere access to this trash-heap: but every time I cancel, something makes me go back to TV after a few months (a sports event, a new premium show, whatever it may be)...

 

fewer people have yet reached that level of cognitive dissonance in their digital media life - search engine optimization and the "loser-generated content" model of social media billionaires being only the tip of a veritable iceberg... the network effects will still have you pay attention to Facebook and Twitter, Google and Yahoo, even if we all have real information about them that should make us think twice about keeping up with the digital Jones'. a recent large poll about the impending IPO of Facebook for instance showed that more than half the respondents in the USA use it, although less than a third of them trust Facebook with their data, and fewer than ten percent were prepared to buy anything on Facebook...

 

long story short, my point is that there is no "naive media consumer" and yet all us supposedly world-weary cynics are steeping in a moldy bath of "the high ratio of advertising content to editorial in the magazines" and everywhere else. it doesn't make us less interested in Stereophile or other audio magazines, just as it doesn't make us less interested in TV and online media. this forum, too, is free to most users, and yet something has to pay for it, right? doesn't make you distrust anything it says here, does it? "contributor" isn't a custom title up there for me - it's an indication that I opted, a few times, to pay instead of enduring more advertising...

post #70 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by melomaniac View Post

long story short, my point is that there is no "naive media consumer" and yet all us supposedly world-weary cynics are steeping in a moldy bath of "the high ratio of advertising content to editorial in the magazines" and everywhere else. it doesn't make us less interested in Stereophile or other audio magazines, just as it doesn't make us less interested in TV and online media. this forum, too, is free to most users, and yet something has to pay for it, right? doesn't make you distrust anything it says here, does it? "contributor" isn't a custom title up there for me - it's an indication that I opted, a few times, to pay instead of enduring more advertising...

 

I agree with some of what you are saying here, and I applaud your willingness to put your money where your mouth is. Where I have a problem with any comparison between Stereophile and a board such as Head-Fi is simple : AFAIK, Jude isnt personally responsible for the opinions expressed here, and he isnt sending editorial to a printer each month or so. When I read that Martin Colloms article, a shiver ran down my spine - threatening editors with legal action if they print anything unflattering is straight from a (bad) Hollywood script. Assuming his admins have done their job, Jude could freeze Head-Fi with a few mouse clicks - sure, there are still cached copies available elsewhere, but he doesnt have to recall 50.000 printed magazines from newsagencies. 

 

I said in an earlier post that no-one wants to see a Michelin Star approach to audio components, but Stereophile were in a position to do exactly that with their RCL. I know I'm going way OT with this, but I find this account from a Michelin Guide whistleblower awfully similar to many of Colloms' claims re magazine editorial (bolding is mine):

 

 

Pascal Rémy, a veteran France-based Michelin inspector, and also a former Gault Millau employee, wrote a tell-all book in 2004 entitled L'Inspecteur se Met à Table (literally, "The Inspector Sits Down at the Table"; idiomatically, "The Inspector Spills the Beans", or "The Inspector Puts It All on the Table").

Rémy described the French Michelin inspector's life as lonely, underpaid drudgery, driving around France for weeks on end, dining alone, under intense pressure to file detailed reports on strict deadlines. He claimed the Guide had become lax in its standards. Though Michelin states that its inspectors visited all 4,000 reviewed restaurants in France every 18 months, and all starred restaurants several times a year, Rémy said only about one visit every 3.5 years was possible because there were only 11 inspectors in France when he was hired, rather than the 50 or more hinted by Michelin. That number, he said, had shrunk to five by the time he was fired in 2003.

Furthermore, Rémy charged, the Guide played favorites. He specifically named Paul Bocuse, the pioneer of nouvelle cuisine, whose restaurant, l'Auberge du Pont de Collonges, near Lyon, was known, according to Rémy, to have declined considerably in quality, yet continued to hold 3 stars.[37] Michelin denied Rémy's charges, but refused to say how many inspectors it actually employed in France. In response to Rémy's claim that certain 3-star chefs were untouchable, Michelin said only, "...if [our ratings] weren't true...customers would write and tell us."[38] Rémy's employment was terminated when he informed Michelin of his plans to publish his book. He brought a court case for unfair dismissal, which was unsuccessful

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_Star#Allegations_of_lax_inspection_standards_and_bias

post #71 of 133

"This is an uncompetitive product, an assertion borne out not by my say-so but by sales numbers," I wrote. "When ball clubs have losing records, players and coaches and managers get their walking papers. At GM, it's time to sweep the dugout."

 

That week, GM pulled its national advertising out of the L.A. Times. To the credit of the editors, the paper stood by the review and eventually GM's advertising came back.

 

This is how its supposed to work. The paper stood by their writer who was honest in his opinion, GM screamed and cried and stomped its feet, and in the end it gave in. Unfortunately, it almost never works this way. The negative reviews just don't get written so that everyone's feelings are spared, lest any "journalists" be denied their precious access and even more precious junkets.

 

In the rare instance that negative reviews are written, threats of lost advertising or potential suits are enough to get the writer fired (or at least the article pulled), and everybody else learns from that lesson PDQ. You're left with a cheer leading squad, the readers think you're pathetic, you lose subs and need to make it up with more advertising, you lose even more readers, etc.


Edited by DaveBSC - 5/18/12 at 5:59pm
post #72 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by thune View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

Interesting - saw a post from a DiYer claiming the modules are basically 'ready to go' out of the box - wire them up and find yourself a case. Given that I cant solder to save myself, this might be an oversimplification..... 

2K USD per module - not sure if we are talking identical part numbers though. If that is the case, its less than 5K for two monoblocks you have to assemble yourself - not exactly cheap, but definitely cheaper than the numbers you have listed
N-Core NC400 modules are € 325, and two could be powered by one SMPS600 for € 180. So for $1052 USD + shipping + other small parts +  time and effort, one could have a stereo pair of Hypex N-Core.

Also, I'm still assuming that other OEMs will have N-Core products (with NC1200) at much lower prices than Mola-Mola.

Edit: I see that obobskivich has already linked to the webshop
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos974 View Post

It's also going to be freaking expansive, 6,500€ for the preamp and 10,000€ for the pair of monoblocks.

Interesting - saw a post from a DiYer claiming the modules are basically 'ready to go' out of the box - wire them up and find yourself a case. Given that I cant solder to save myself, this might be an oversimplification.....

2K USD per module - not sure if we are talking identical part numbers though. If that is the case, its less than 5K for two monoblocks you have to assemble yourself - not exactly cheap, but definitely cheaper than the numbers you have listed.

There's no denying that an NCore amp can be DIY'ed for cheap, Mola-Mola can't set itself up as a competitor for DIY'ers and Hypex's OEM clients.
If you bu Mola-Mola, you are essentially buying the certainty that your gear was 100% designed by Bruno Putzeys.
IMHO, it's not worth it, but some people may have the cash to spare.
post #73 of 133

I have owned solid state , tube, and now class D Ice Powered amps. I'll take my Bel Canto M300s over anything I have owned. I don't pay alot of attention to numbers. I respect the advise of trusted friends then listen for myself. There are alot of great products out there. To each his own.

 

cubdog

post #74 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos974 View Post


There's no denying that an NCore amp can be DIY'ed for cheap, Mola-Mola can't set itself up as a competitor for DIY'ers and Hypex's OEM clients.
If you bu Mola-Mola, you are essentially buying the certainty that your gear was 100% designed by Bruno Putzeys.
IMHO, it's not worth it, but some people may have the cash to spare.

 

I suspect that there are folk out there who are sufficiently in awe of his talents that they will want nothing less, just as there are folk who simply have to own Halcro, Krell or whatever. I'll probably never hear a set of Halcro monos doing their thing, and I doubt that I would be willing to drive to South Australia (!) and hand a man a cheque for 40K even if I had that kind of money. Ironically, I lived in Torrensville way back in the 80s - cant say it left a particularly positive impression on me - but Adelaide is a long, boring drive from my place but paying freight on those monsters would really hurt - two man lift etc.

 

I dont know what the shipping weight of the Mola-Mola pre/power set comes to, but I'm confident that its a whole lot less than anything they have at Halcro. Whether they are even in the same league sonically is the question on everyone's mind, but from a practicality POV, the Mola-Mola doesnt seem as intimidating as the Class A competition.  xe.com tells me that even 20K Euro (allowing for freight and Customs duty on 16.5K Euro) is less than 26K AUD - and the 40K Halcros would still need an expensive pre-amp, not to mention the fuel bill and the damage to the suspension on my Mazda 3.  eek.gif

 

I know - fantasyland both ways - but for the mining magnates in this vast, brown land, its chump change.  biggrin.gif

 

(note to the Class A devotees out there - I got the horse's head, so please dont send any more. If my mentioning Halcro and Krell in the same sentence as Class D infuriates you, please take a chill pill before posting something rational to that effect. I freely admit I havent heard any of the above, and quite possibly never will - c'est la vie)

post #75 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdog View Post

I have owned solid state , tube, and now class D Ice Powered amps. I'll take my Bel Canto M300s over anything I have owned. I don't pay alot of attention to numbers. I respect the advise of trusted friends then listen for myself. There are alot of great products out there. To each his own.

 

cubdog

 

Did you post something to that effect on CanuckMart/AudioKarma a short while back ? If not, you have a kindred soul out there who feels the same way. Thanks for the recommendation - at ~2K for the pair, that is a long way from the other numbers we seem to be throwing around atm. OK, the numbers *I* seem to be throwing around .......   rolleyes.gif

 

PS Dont worry - the doctors are seeing to it that I get all the help I need - they've assured me that I should be fine to go home by Jan 1st, 2025 ! blink.gif

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