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post #31 of 80
5/10/12 at 3:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSUV View Post

A Porsche can be 2 to 3 times the price of a Hyundai but some of the Hyundai's can be a match to the Porsche in terms of horsepower figures alone.

 I am assuming you are referring to a Porsche 911 turbo s.  That is an expensive and powerful Hyundai, which model are you referring to? 

 

 

 

For the record Porsche 390kw and the Hyundai Genesis has 260kw.  I think 5 times the price is a better analogy figure, however the Hyundai cannot match the horsepower.


Edited by Kernmac - 5/10/12 at 3:20am
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post #32 of 80
5/10/12 at 4:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSUV View Post

A Porsche can be 2 to 3 times the price of a Hyundai but some of the Hyundai's can be a match to the Porsche in terms of horsepower figures alone. But when you talk about the driving excitement between a Porsche and a Hyundai, the Porsche is worth every penny of its asking price. Just an analogy. My point is, when you are reaching the upper levels of performance, it takes more effort (and cost) to squeeze out every last drop of performance you can get out of a product.
As a rule, car analogies are awful. smily_headphones1.gif Anyway, take for instance the GT-R at $100k, it smokes every production car below half a mil in pretty much every performance category. You have to get into the "hyper cars" to best it, and even then it isn't always cut and dried. Sure, I'd rather have a 458 or Aventador based on aesthetics alone, but I have no illusions that I'd be able to shake the cheaper Nissan on track day if its owner wants to climb up my bum.

It's somewhat similar with headphones, a lot of extra money will get you bling and a certain satisfaction that you own TOTL gear. However, there are "high value" cans out there that can offer almost the same thrills for a fraction of the cost. It's just up to you to decide if the modest improvements and exclusivity are worth it. For me, with some brands it is and with others it isn't.
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post #33 of 80
5/10/12 at 4:34am

Surprised nobody's mentioned the Shure 1840's yet. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post

Like the previous comparison, this one won't have any flowery prose and is sure to have spelling and grammatical errors. I just don't have the time to go through it all. The main thing I've tried to do is give accurate information with another popular reference point (the T1s).

Also, I should mention something about my last comparison, in which I said the 1840s stopped changing after 15-20 hours. I guess I was wrong. They do sound a bit better after the 60 hours or so I've put on them and they haven't changed at all in the last 10 hours. Placebo? Maybe, but I'm liking the results. The comparison with the 650s still stands...nothing changed there.

 

Stock Shure SRH1840 vs. beyerdynamic T1 + DHC Molecule UPOCC copper cable

 

Compared to the SRH1840, the T1s have a significantly more forward treble, especially in the 8-10KHz peak you typically see on their frequency response graphs. I usually don’t find the T1s to be harsh because their treble is refined, grain-free and controlled, but there’s no doubt there’s just more of it present. For this reason, I think the mids on the T1 are pushed back a lot farther than the Shures, which, as I mentioned earlier, are very mid-centric headphones. In general, the Shures are warmer, darker and have about the same amount of bass, maybe a bit more (feels that way subjectively).

 

The bass extension, I’m quickly finding out, on the 1840s is excellent. In comparison to the T1s, the Shures carry a bit more volume in the deeper test tones and their bass seems more linear, just like it did against the HD650.

Interestingly, the T1s have a similar midbass hump as the HD650s, and their bass is involving and punchy. The Shures don’t have as much of this due to their neutrality/flatness in this area, but their bass is enjoyable nonetheless as it sounds somewhat fuller.

More on the low-end; the T1s seems a bit tighter and the overall speed of the headphones is very slightly greater than that of the 1840s. There’s also a difference in the “bite” or leading edge of the attack, with the T1 being slightly sharper and abrupt. I think the T1 are more accurate here, but the 1840s sound more forgiving because of this (and other factors, like tone). This took me a while to notice, but it’s a consistent, subtle difference. It may actually be the reason for my perception of the speed difference…only time will tell.

This is also a good time to address a point that MuppetFace brought up in her own review. I think the Shures excel in bass texture. They do have this “growl” like she said. It’s a detailed and nuanced presentation of the bass.

 

As for soundstage, the T1 layers music better, and presents a greater sense of 3D space. It’s also more accurate in its placement of instruments/vocals and their relative focus/separation. I wouldn’t say the size differs by much. In fact, the Shures present larger, more diffuse, but upclose images in front of the listener, while the T1s present more frontal depth with smaller images.  It seems to me that the T1 sound more technically competent in this area, but it doesn’t take away from the enjoyment of music on the Shures. Actually, soundstaging on the 1840s kind of reminds me of how orthos often image in relation to dynamics…flatter, less deep, but with larger images.

 

Detail-retrieval on both headphones is very good, but I believe the T1s may hold a slight advantage in treble clarity. Ofcourse, this could just be a byproduct of the boosted treble, but that’s how it sounds to me.  

 

In terms of dynamics, both headphones are quite good but the Shures are actually better here. Macro and micro dynamics...both large scale volume changes as well as small subtle/delicate inflections, I feel the 1840s do it a little better.

 

I’ve picked the sound apart here and analyzed each area separately, but it’s important to get a holistic picture of what to expect. Just listening to both of these headphones, do I feel the recabled T1s are worth twice the price of the 1840? No. Do I think they’re even any better than the 1840? Hard to say…I would argue not. The Shures are usually more involving and instantly likable. There’s no prominent flaw in their sound, unlike a lot of other headphones out there. I personally could do without the T1’s treble spike for instance, even though it doesn’t bother me enough to stop listening. Overall, I find the Shures to be more natural, less fatiguing and easier to listen to. They don’t beat the T1s in all domains of technical performance, but they certainly sound as good.

 

 

There are comparisons with the HD-800 somewhere as well, possibly from MF:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/583950/shure-srh1840-and-srh1440-unveiled/1035

 

I personally prefer the 1440's though. 

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post #34 of 80
5/10/12 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post

As a rule, car analogies are awful. smily_headphones1.gif Anyway, take for instance the GT-R at $100k, it smokes every production car below half a mil in pretty much every performance category. You have to get into the "hyper cars" to best it, and even then it isn't always cut and dried. Sure, I'd rather have a 458 or Aventador based on aesthetics alone, but I have no illusions that I'd be able to shake the cheaper Nissan on track day if its owner wants to climb up my bum.
It's somewhat similar with headphones, a lot of extra money will get you bling and a certain satisfaction that you own TOTL gear. However, there are "high value" cans out there that can offer almost the same thrills for a fraction of the cost. It's just up to you to decide if the modest improvements and exclusivity are worth it. For me, with some brands it is and with others it isn't.

I agree with this entirely. I've tried a couple of flagships (not the T1 or HD 800, and I'll get to that in a second) - most of them cost a whole lot of cash simply because they say "flagship" somewhere on the package (and there's your answer). This doesn't mean they're bad - they can be excellent! But you have to step away from "okay so they're good" and think about "they're good, but let's talk turkey." And usually once you do that, they don't come up smelling like roses.

Unfortunately it seems with audio equipment in general though, people have been locked into this method of thinking that more expensive MUST correlate with better, and the goal is just to spend as much money as you possibly can. Car analogies are often used to argue this case, but anyone who's spent some time around cars will be able to tell you that in that world, spending as much money as you possibly can is usually not well received. Usually the most expensive possible options aren't even universally accepted as the best. It's...more realistic, if you will.

I think the same tack should be taken here - just because something is the most expensive, rarest, or whatever else, does not make it the best. Dumping more money into the hole doesn't improve the situation. And attacking people for not having spent as much money as you have, well that's just in poor form all around.
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post #35 of 80
5/10/12 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post

Want T1 sound? Get some DT880 600s, same sound signature and >90% of the SQ for 1/4 the price. Yeah, I've tested them back-to-back, it really is true.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

OP, like I said in your other thread, the DT880 600 does come very close to T1 quality, but it costs just a fraction of the T1. In that case, you can use the rest of the cash to grab a nice head amp to enjoy the DT880 600 instead. T1 without good head amp wouldn't really shine anyway.

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post #36 of 80
5/27/12 at 10:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

OP, like I said in your other thread, the DT880 600 does come very close to T1 quality, but it costs just a fraction of the T1. In that case, you can use the rest of the cash to grab a nice head amp to enjoy the DT880 600 instead. T1 without good head amp wouldn't really shine anyway.

 

Again-what gear are you running these out of??? Compared to the T1, the DT 880 is thin, brittle, lacks bass quality and quality, isn't nearly as transparent and detailed, and lacks the realistic tonality of the T1 that gives it the best mids I have yet to hear from a headphone. And on and on... Subjectively and objectively, the T1 simply outclasses the DT 880 at every single level. I wouldn't even say they sound that similar-being as I have never been a fan of the 880, but the tesla is one of the best. Either check your rigs, or check your ears. confused.gif

 

-Daniel

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post #37 of 80
5/27/12 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post

Again-what gear are you running these out of??? Compared to the T1, the DT 880 is thin, brittle, lacks bass quality and quality, isn't nearly as transparent and detailed, and lacks the realistic tonality of the T1 that gives it the best mids I have yet to hear from a headphone. And on and on... Subjectively and objectively, the T1 simply outclasses the DT 880 at every single level. I wouldn't even say they sound that similar-being as I have never been a fan of the 880, but the tesla is one of the best. Either check your rigs, or check your ears. confused.gif

-Daniel
My ears are fine, and so is my gear. The expectation that something so much more expensive has to be so much better makes placebo a very powerful thing.
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post #38 of 80
5/28/12 at 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post

The expectation that something so much more expensive has to be so much better makes placebo a very powerful thing.

+1.

I also think it's in somewhat poor taste to trash on someone because their tastes don't coincide with your own. I don't think Magick was trying to insult the T1 or impugn its owners, simply to make an observation based on his/her own experience and the value proposition of expensive cans.
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post #39 of 80
5/28/12 at 12:16am

The HD800 are good, but the D7000 are better.

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post #40 of 80
5/28/12 at 12:58am

i think the HE500 would be another alternative for those two flagships

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post #41 of 80
5/28/12 at 5:37am

Could you explain why they are "better"? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxide View Post

The HD800 are good, but the D7000 are better.

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post #42 of 80
5/28/12 at 5:41am
Better is subjective. If you like some emphasized bass, the D7000 will undoubtedly be more to your liking than an HD800 which is more neutral. Different strokes for different folks.

$1000 gets you something like the DT880/600, a good dac and amp. I don't understand the need to jump right into flagships. I only got the D7000 because they were constantly on sale. Had they been their MSRP range, I'd have settled for the D2000 or D5000.
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post #43 of 80
5/28/12 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post

My ears are fine, and so is my gear. The expectation that something so much more expensive has to be so much better makes placebo a very powerful thing.

 

The T1 is also somewhat louder due to the improved efficiency of the Tesla drivers, making it subjectively sound better when swapped directly without matching the volume. "Thin, lacking bass and detail" is exactly what is heard when switching to a slightly quieter, but otherwise identical sound.

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post #44 of 80
5/28/12 at 7:39am

I justified my purchase of the DT880s because I heard people say the T1s weren't that much better...those people were wrong. The T1s are a significantly better headphone than the 880s, IMO. 

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post #45 of 80
5/28/12 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stv014 View Post

The T1 is also somewhat louder due to the improved efficiency of the Tesla drivers, making it subjectively sound better when swapped directly without matching the volume. "Thin, lacking bass and detail" is exactly what is heard when switching to a slightly quieter, but otherwise identical sound.

That's what I found too. Subtle differences in loudness are usually perceived as improvements in quality, and I believe that's what we're seeing. Not to say the T1 isn't more capable, I thought it was, it simply wasn't "lightyears better".
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