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VSONIC OXOO (Limited Edition Flagship) - Info & expectations thread - Page 2

post #16 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post

They cost a lot more because more work are put into them, unlike universals being produced by cast and mold robot's (and possibly put together by engineers), CIEM's are made specifically and handcrafted for the users ear based on there ear impressions.

 

The CIEM design/build process is much less complicated than what most believe it to be. The only reason why they cost much more than universals is that the process is bespoke, and is thereby low volume by nature. A low volume universal such as a K3003 or whatever takes as much effort to build as a custom. With that being said, it's not worth its asking price (blame that on Harmon), but it does require a lot more effort to build than any other universal around, with the exception of the high-end FADs.

post #17 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

Eh? I haven't spoken to any musicians, but I'm pretty sure they don't care about the difference between a JH5 and a JH16. As long as it has the response they desire in their position, whether it be vocalist, guitarist, drummer, etc. they're fine with it. I don't think any drummer believes that the JH16 is going to take his on-stage drumming to the next level over using a JH11 --- it's mostly the companies outfitting them with the latest and greatest, thereby pushing consumers to do the same.

Did you read my post? I never stated going from one CIEM to a higher end model was going to provide any difference, Muppetface mentioned if CIEM's provided any benefit at all for live/onstage performers and I said for stage monitoring and isolation it has a huge contributing advantageous factor. WHERE did you get the impression that I said that going from lower model CIEM to a higher end CIEM provides extra performance? confused.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

 

The UE18 was never close to $1800. It's always been $1,350, right from the start when it was first announced back in January 2010.

 

Yeah unfortunately for you US guy's, it was at $1350, the Australian Logitech site had them for around $1750 or something when it was announced back then.


Edited by DefQon - 5/21/12 at 5:21am
post #18 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post

Did you read my post? I never stated going from one CIEM to a higher end model was going to provide any difference, Muppetface mentioned if CIEM's provided any benefit at all for live/onstage performers and I said for stage monitoring and isolation it has a huge contributing advantageous factor. WHERE did you get the impression that I said that going from lower model CIEM to a higher end CIEM provides extra performance? confused.gif

 

Actually, I do believe that MF meant to ask whether or not musicians actually needed CIEMs with more and more drivers. I'm sure she realizes the advantages a custom shell provides for an onstage musician. I was addressing that.

post #19 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

The CIEM design/build process is much less complicated than what most believe it to be. The only reason why they cost much more than universals is that the process is bespoke, and is thereby low volume by nature. A low volume universal such as a K3003 or whatever takes as much effort to build as a custom. With that being said, it's not worth its asking price (blame that on Harmon), but it does require a lot more effort to build than any other universal around, with the exception of the high-end FADs.

The CIEM process is a lot harder then general universal's, yes you might end up with a unique designed universal once in a long while that might have a slightly effort evolved process, but it is still nothing compared to the build process of CIEM's. Yes they are two different thing's but of similar nature and purpose, professional engineer's need to hand dremel cast acrylic or silicon shell's into the shape and physical measurements exactly (or near perfect) to the original taken ear impressions. For universal's, yes it might take sometime to come with up the correct driver technology and design used, but once the project has been finalized, the process can go through and can be produced at a faster rate then CIEM's (although still slower compared to general IEM's).

post #20 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

Actually, I do believe that MF meant to ask whether or not musicians actually needed CIEMs with more and more drivers. I'm sure she realizes the advantages a custom shell provides for an onstage musician. I was addressing that.

 

Yes you could be right, my interpretations as of tonight has been a bit off target, I've had zilch sleep been feeding on energy tablets and drinks, been a long day at work today and continuing with my exams tomorrow. 
 

As putante pointed out, this thread is getting derailed so let's get the train back on the tracks.

post #21 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

The CIEM design/build process is much less complicated than what most believe it to be. The only reason why they cost much more than universals is that the process is bespoke, and is thereby low volume by nature. A low volume universal such as a K3003 or whatever takes as much effort to build as a custom. With that being said, it's not worth its asking price (blame that on Harmon), but it does require a lot more effort to build than any other universal around, with the exception of the high-end FADs.

 

While the K3003 may indeed be overpriced, people tend to dismiss/ignore the costs of R&D, specially for a product that will not be selling thousands of units. Then comes a company like Vsonic that practically takes the same design developed by AKG (not Harman), and simply steals that from AKG. Yes, I know everyone does it, which is no excuse, really, but at least there's some sort of justification for the K3003 price. Have Vsonic managed to also steal the sonics produced by the K3003? That remains to be seen, but that's not the point.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post

 

Yeah unfortunately for you US guy's, it was at $1350, the Australian Logitech site had them for around $1750 or something when it was announced back then.



I'm not based in the US, but that's beside the point. The point is that, for instance, the UE18 in Europe costs $1,800, while still being made in the US. The Westone ES5 costs $1,500+ but at least it's made in Europe, with western European labour costs & added taxes. Westone & Shure universals cost a hell of a lot more in Europe (and Japan), too.

While people will often insist that customs are a (much) better option than a good universal IEM, there are many things that can, and do go, wrong with customs -- things that often go unreported for several reasons. Then you have the usual claim, mostly hype, unfortunately, that customs are so much better sonically than good universals.

 

This is my last post on the subject.

post #22 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

While the K3003 may indeed be overpriced, people tend to dismiss/ignore the costs of R&D, specially for a product that will not be selling thousands of units. Then comes a company like Vsonic that practically takes the same design developed by AKG (not Harman), and simply steals that from AKG. Yes, I know everyone does it, which is no excuse, really, but at least there's some sort of justification for the K3003 price. Have Vsonic managed to also steal the sonics produced by the K3003? That remains to be seen, but that's not the point.

 



I'm not based in the US, but that's beside the point. The point is that, for instance, the UE18 in Europe costs $1,800, while still being made in the US. The Westone ES5 costs $1,500+ but at least it's made in Europe, with western European labour costs & added taxes. Westone & Shure universals cost a hell of a lot more in Europe (and Japan), too.

While people will often insist that customs are a (much) better option than a good universal IEM, there are many things that can, and do go, wrong with customs -- things that often go unreported for several reasons. Then you have the usual claim, mostly hype, unfortunately, that customs are so much better sonically than good universals.

 

This is my last post on the subject.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly about R&D costs being what composes much of the cost in addition to the fact that they wish to make more than just a normal profit  and that they will be selling a low quantity of units due to its price range.

 

Whether or not VSonic is able to mirror the K3003 with its GR08 or OXOO in sonics leaves much to be answered.  However, if they do manage to mirror the sound quality of the AKG K3003 or best it it is better for the consumer because it causes increased competition. 

post #23 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassadian View Post

 

 However, if they do manage to mirror the sound quality of the AKG K3003 or best it it is better for the consumer because it causes increased competition. 

 

1. It will be priced similarly to the K3003, most likely still over $1k?

2. Limited Edition so few will be in production and onto the market.

 

The only consumer's that this will suit best for like the K3003 is only a hand full of people as Muppetface suggested earlier in her post, there isn't much competition well besides to Vsonic vs AKG for this hand full of people that have the money to buy such expensive products.

post #24 of 59

music_4321 has a point if Vsonic has copied AKG's design.

 

You see amps on ebay (based on Beyerdynamic A1 design) etc...

post #25 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

While the K3003 may indeed be overpriced, people tend to dismiss/ignore the costs of R&D, specially for a product that will not be selling thousands of units. Then comes a company like Vsonic that practically takes the same design developed by AKG (not Harman), and simply steals that from AKG. Yes, I know everyone does it, which is no excuse, really, but at least there's some sort of justification for the K3003 price. Have Vsonic managed to also steal the sonics produced by the K3003? That remains to be seen, but that's not the point.

 

 

I think steal is being little harsh. There are only so few possible optimal configurations for this arrangement. It's like saying every touchscreen phone stole from the iPhone. In their defense, you don't know how long they'd been working on the GR08 nor do you know the engineering of the internals, which might be markedly different. And if by steal the sonics, you mean signature, I don't see why they would, as long as sound quality is up there, why make it the same? VSonic has a house sound.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know why anyone is complaining about the K3003 price. Anyone can charge whatever they want for whatever they sell. No one knows the details of their business case. Maybe they wanted to make it stand out, a flagship, exclusive, etc. Maybe their R&D costs were ridiculously high because their engineers liked to go out for a few beers and some bratwurst while watching soccer every day at the bar. I'm obviously joking but I am making a point in that there's no point in arguing over things we don't know the details of.

 

Eg. The Nissan GT-R outperforms cars over twice its price. Do any of you really think the guy buying the 458 Italia gives a sh*t? Something is worth whatever people pay for it for whatever reason they choose.

 

The exterior design, well, I'm not defending that.


Edited by vwinter - 5/21/12 at 7:12am
post #26 of 59

I agree that 'steal' is a bit harsh, but AKG did sort of pave the way and allowed others to realize that the design was feasible --- suspend a TWFK at the front of the sound port and allow the dynamic driver to be driven from behind. VSONIC would probably not have been willing to invest the money into whether or not this was a workable design until they saw that AKG had done it. Proof of concept is half the battle when it comes to intellectual property. The current smartphones aren't 'stealing' from Apple per se, but the other companies certainly didn't have the balls to do multitouch until they saw Apple do it.

 

With respect to the OXOO (in an effort to link our digressions back on topic), I certainly hope they'll be coming out with something that goes above and beyond anything anyone else has done so far. It might not be a revolutionary design, but I'll be disappointed with anything less than a massive evolutionary step. Portable audio isn't the computer chip industry, you don't need all the chips to line up in the right way to make something truly exceptional. VSONIC has as much technical expertise as any other big name in the industry to make a statement.

post #27 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

I agree that 'steal' is a bit harsh, but AKG did sort of pave the way and allowed others to realize that the design was feasible --- suspend a TWFK at the front of the sound port and allow the dynamic driver to be driven from behind. VSONIC would probably not have been willing to invest the money into whether or not this was a workable design until they saw that AKG had done it. Proof of concept is half the battle when it comes to intellectual property. The current smartphones aren't 'stealing' from Apple per se, but the other companies certainly didn't have the balls to do multitouch until they saw Apple do it.

 

With respect to the OXOO (in an effort to link our digressions back on topic), I certainly hope they'll be coming out with something that goes above and beyond anything anyone else has done so far. It might not be a revolutionary design, but I'll be disappointed with anything less than a massive evolutionary step. Portable audio isn't the computer chip industry, you don't need all the chips to line up in the right way to make something truly exceptional. VSONIC has as much technical expertise as any other big name in the industry to make a statement.

 

That works for me. But if that is the case then their turnaround time is pretty damn quick. Again, I think we should at least wait to see an exploded rendering at the least before jumping on any assumptions.

 

I think the OXOO will be more a high quality workmanship thing than a marvel of engineering personally. I'll most likely be marginally better than the GR08. I've eating a hat or two in my day though...

 

Bolded: 

This just in:  VSONIC Focus 007, planar magnetic IEM.

 

Ok, now I'm derailing.


Edited by vwinter - 5/21/12 at 7:30am
post #28 of 59
Originally Posted by vwinter View Post

 

I think steal is being little harsh. There are only so few possible optimal configurations for this arrangement. It's like saying every touchscreen phone stole from the iPhone.

 

In their defense, you don't know how long they'd been working on the GR08 nor do you know the engineering of the internals, which might be markedly different. And if by steal the sonics, you mean signature, I don't see why they would, as long as sound quality is up there, why make it the same? VSonic has a house sound.

 

It's a complicated issue.  I think the IBM Simon released in 1994 was was one of the first touchscreens, not the iPhone.  If you mean the creative design of the iPhone, then ok... but apart from the artistic expression... isn't it only a very streamlined basic concept?  Such as the evolution of LCD monitors, or TV's, i.e. thinner, wider, thinner, wider.

 

Either way, it appears like Sony invented the driver in the GR07, and Knowles invented the mid-high drivers in the K3003 / GR08.

 

 

Originally Posted by vwinter View Post

 

I don't know why anyone is complaining about the K3003 price. Anyone can charge whatever they want for whatever they sell. No one knows the details of their business case. Maybe they wanted to make it stand out, a flagship, exclusive, etc. Maybe their R&D costs were ridiculously high because their engineers liked to go out for a few beers and some bratwurst while watching soccer every day at the bar. I'm obviously joking but I am making a point in that there's no point in arguing over things we don't know the details of.

 

Eg. The Nissan GT-R outperforms cars over twice its price. Do any of you really think the guy buying the 458 Italia gives a sh*t? Something is worth whatever people pay for it for whatever reason they choose.

 

That's a bit too laissez faire isn't it?  Price != performance in audio so people make statements on price all the time, some want sound quality to liken a very technical / accurate watch and not take off into jewellery / fashion watches.  It's complicated though since we mostly talk about audio without very much access to listen to it, and audio is also creativity and art as well as technical performance, plus the instruments and software can't actually measure very much of we hear, especially in IEM's I think.

post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

It's a complicated issue.  I think the IBM Simon released in 1994 was was one of the first touchscreens, not the iPhone.  If you mean the creative design of the iPhone, then ok... but apart from the artistic expression... isn't it only a very streamlined basic concept?  Such as the evolution of LCD monitors, or TV's, i.e. thinner, wider, thinner, wider.

Either way, it appears like Sony invented the driver in the GR07, and Knowles invented the mid-high drivers in the K3003 / GR08.

Well I was saying that it's ridiculous to think everyone is copying the iPhone. It's the most obvious configuration for a phone and where it would have gone eventually. Apple did the touch screen only phone in a way that made everyone take notice, but the "invention" is such that it was inevitable, since Apple didn't invent the touch screen.

It's the same situation here, how many possible ways are there to align 2 separate transducers in one enclosure? You can probably count them on 10 fingers. It's how they implement the positioning that's important IMO. And we don't know anything about that right now.




That's a bit too laissez faire isn't it?  Price != performance in audio so people make statements on price all the time, some want sound quality to liken a very technical / accurate watch and not take off into jewellery / fashion watches.  It's complicated though since we mostly talk about audio without very much access to listen to it, and audio is also creativity and art as well as technical performance, plus the instruments and software can't actually measure very much of we hear, especially in IEM's I think.

I agree with that. Price to performance is fine with me, even though like you said what we hear is hard to actually measure. Its the idea of "worth" that is useless to talk about because so many variables are in the eye of the beholder.
post #30 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

AKG did sort of pave the way and allowed others to realize that the design was feasible

 

I don't think so.  AKG is not the first to have a BA/DD hybrid.  They also aren't the first to mount a driver in front of their woofer.  The DDMs have always had a smaller dynamic in front of a larger dynamic.  If you can do that you can put a cluster of BAs in front.  To me the 3003 is just AKG's natural progression from the novel potential of the K340 hybrid estat/DD headphone with improved coherency. 

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