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Dilemma: Should I not believe any reviewers who talk about cables or just ignore that section of... - Page 5

post #61 of 1790
Thread Starter 

Oh I have no interest in those cables. Just stating that there really are cables that cost as much as the products they are made for in the IEM realm. I think those cables look ugly anyways.

 

The only reason I would every buy cables that cost a lot would be for portability, some innovative design, excellent aesthetic or issues with my normal cables. I am just saying that Psychoacoustics could affect enjoyment even more than actual improvements given the right circumstances. Obviously it will have limitations but they probably go a long way.

post #62 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1o2r3i4s5 View Post

 

 

LOL, do keep in mind that cable capacitances are actually VERY small (in the magnitude of 1-10pF), This is smaller than the high-frequency filter capacitors used in amplifiers to remove unwanted supersonic frequencies and prevent oscillation in the amplifier (these capacitors are in the magnitude of around 100pF).

 

 

Cable capacitance is on a higher order than you think & just the connectors are typically between 5-10pf each. Like I said the lowest capacitance that I have measured on a commercial product was 125pf with connectors. Most are much more than that as in close to & even over 200pf. I have messed around with even the RF protection capacitor sizes & found they made an audible difference on an old Adcom GFA545 that I had modified. I settled on 100pf as going lower  resulted in too bright of sound. I had a set of Polk Audio SDS SRS speakers before that had a 1000pf silver mica cap bypassing the tweeter crossover capacitor which was a high quality metalized film unit already & this cap made quite a difference. Sound became duller when I removed it so I put it right back in. Bear in mind that this was in a low impedance circuit which according to you guys should not have made a difference given it's small size but it did & quite a pronounced one.What I am saying is that relatively small capacitances in high impedance circuits  can make quite a difference & in cableing it results in very subtle rolloffs tat you would have difficulty measuring with a scope but the audible effects go down into the midrange area causing instruments like piano to loose some of thier lively character thus making them sound bland & lifeless.

 

Make note that I actually measured these cable capacitances & not just took someone elses word on it.


Edited by germanium - 5/7/12 at 9:53pm
post #63 of 1790

But you are expecting us to take your word on them making an audible difference, when there is nothing to suggest they would be able to, and you provide no objective evidence of audibility? No DBT, no measurements (which are more sensitive than ears, and less prone to bias). 

 

Note - changing the speaker cap values willl affect sound - since that controls the crossover point. But not at the cabling levels. 


Edited by liamstrain - 5/7/12 at 9:57pm
post #64 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

But you are expecting us to take your word on them making an audible difference, when there is nothing to suggest they would be able to, and you provide no objective evidence of audibility? No DBT, no measurements (which are more sensitive than ears, and less prone to bias). 

 

Note - changing the speaker cap values willl affect sound - since that controls the crossover point. But not at the cabling levels. 

People like you will never understand things that are truthfully present untill you experience it your self. Being a modder i have to listen very closely fore extended periods of time before I determine if something is an improvement or not. There have been somethings that I discarded immediately on hearing the result because they were definately not the improvement I was looking for.going too low on the RF bleed cap was one of them & not because of instabilty as there was none, it was just too bright.

 

On the speaker that I mentioned 1000pf is not enough to alter the crossover frequency as the normal tolerance of the metalized film caps would yield a much greater difference than these 1000pf caps i mentioned as far as crossover frequency so there was definately something else at play such as having lowered the impedance of the crossover at the veryhigh frquencies as that is where I heard the difference & this difference was very very quickly remedied by me as it was not what I was looking for, it was that pronounced. I returned the 1000pf cap to it's place in the circuit. Obviously they put it there for a reason & it was effective for that purpose in this case.


Edited by germanium - 5/7/12 at 10:20pm
post #65 of 1790

If the IEM sounds bad well a nice good quality cable wont help much but if you like the IEMs and you pick the best material for that certain sound you prefer it will help. Copper upgrades and Silver cable upgrades will have a total difference sound. One will bring out the lower end sounds while the other will bring out the mids and highs. I went to a shop and I tried the cables without a care of the brand or materials for 2 hours and ended up getting a Silver cable ($120) for my MG6Pro because it made the Mids much more detailed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZGamer View Post

Ever since I got linked to that whole "cables" topic and read the ridiculous number of sources repeating that from basically regular listeners all the way to top audio engineers and reviewers could not distinguish cables in blind testing, I have been highly conflicted about reviews on this site.


Recently just read a review about another IEM and in it, the cables are being mentioned as enhancing the bass, helping with soundstage and imaging. Sounds like a big difference...

 

But these are $200 cables while audio professionals can't tell the difference between $10 cables and $1000 cables or even coat hangers in the most extreme case...

 

So then should I believe the rest of what these people say or is it just as likely to be as inaccurate? Or do cables still make a difference beyond just peoples imaginations?

 

The dilemma here is that if I was to take these reviewers seriously, it would mean that I believe in cables making a difference despite all the empirical and scientific findings... If I don't believe that cables make a difference, then I am assuming they are talking out of their ass when it comes to sound and that anything they say is probably worthless!

 

Someone tell me what to believe and make it simple!

post #66 of 1790

People like me? I've done extensive listening tests on a huge range of audiophile and professional audio gear. I have experienced changes with many things, but never cables. 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

Copper upgrades and Silver cable upgrades will have a total difference sound. One will bring out the lower end sounds while the other will bring out the mids and highs. 

 

 

No. Copper and Silver have no effect on the sound. The difference in resistance is negligible and that would be the only possible factor. Electricity simply doesn't move in such a way as to be selectively affected (highs, versus lows, etc.). Time and time again this has been shown to be true. Once you do a blind test, all those "differences" mysteriously vanish. No matter what system, or who the listeners are. 


Edited by liamstrain - 5/7/12 at 10:28pm
post #67 of 1790

If your ears didnt hear any difference then best stick with the stock cable and not waste your money. In my case I choose the cable that changed the sound. I also tried various cables for my Shure 535 which a upgrade Copper cable brought out the bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

People like me?

 

 

 

 

 

No. Copper and Silver have no effect on the sound. The difference in resistance is negligible and that would be the only possible factor. Electricity simply doesn't move in such a way as to be selectively affected (highs, versus lows, etc.). 

post #68 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmiamihk View Post

If your ears didnt hear any difference then best stick with the stock cable and not waste your money. In my case I choose the cable that changed the sound. I also tried various cables for my Shure 535 which a upgrade Copper cable brought out the bass.

 

Good advice. If your ears heard a difference it was because of something other than the cable though. You probably should have saved your money too. 

 

But whatever, it's your money. I prefer to spend it on things that actually can affect the sound quality. 

post #69 of 1790

If my ears heard a difference then what ever it was I am still enjoying the cable. If to me I enjoy the sound from a cable even if science says it makes no difference then to me it is good and to me the sound quality is better. have you bought a upgrade cable? If so was it worth it or a waste?

Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

 

Good advice. If your ears heard a difference it was because of something other than the cable though. You probably should have saved your money too. 

 

But whatever, it's your money. I prefer to spend it on things that actually can affect the sound quality. 

post #70 of 1790

Take a look at this:

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p3.htm

From this article : "1nF of cable capacitance with a preamp with an output impedance of 1k will be -3dB at 160kHz. Should the preamp have an output impedance of 10k, the -3dB frequency is now only 16kHz - this is unacceptable". 

 

Silver vs copper has also been debunked, the difference is 2 Ohms for 24 Guage wire over 1000 feet. 

No sonic difference, unless your output impedance is 10k Ohms, which is insane.

There's a reason things are designed to meet certain requirements, and not put together anyhow.


Edited by proton007 - 5/7/12 at 10:38pm
post #71 of 1790

So if one cable that I tried made in my ears sound worse then the stock cables then after I tried another cable that improved the sound it was all my belief and in reality there was no sound difference? You can choose to believe that if it makes you feel smart. There is a big difference in reading and thinking then experience and knowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

Take a look at this:

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p3.htm

From this article : "1nF of cable capacitance with a preamp with an output impedance of 1k will be -3dB at 160kHz. Should the preamp have an output impedance of 10k, the -3dB frequency is now only 16kHz - this is unacceptable". 

 

No sonic difference, unless your output impedance is 10k Ohms, which is insane.

post #72 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

No. Copper and Silver have no effect on the sound. The difference in resistance is negligible and that would be the only possible factor. Electricity simply doesn't move in such a way as to be selectively affected (highs, versus lows, etc.). Time and time again this has been shown to be true. Once you do a blind test, all those "differences" mysteriously vanish. No matter what system, or who the listeners are. 
I thought it made a subtle difference a while back, but ABX testing showed me otherwise. The difference is not audible.

Expectation bias is powerful, guys, don't feel bad about it.
Edited by Magick Man - 5/7/12 at 10:41pm
post #73 of 1790

How can it make a subtle audible difference and then, as you mentioned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post


I thought it made a subtle difference a while back, but ABX testing showed me otherwise. The difference is not audible.
post #74 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmiamihk View Post

How can it make a subtle audible difference and then, as you mentioned?
It didn't, it was all in my head. It's called expectation bias.
post #75 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmiamihk View Post

So if one cable that I tried made in my ears sound worse then the stock cables then after I tried another cable that improved the sound it was all my belief and in reality there was no sound difference? You can choose to believe that if it makes you feel smart. There is a big difference in reading and thinking then experience and knowing.

 

Unless you did an ABX test, I'm afraid yes, it was all in your brain.

'Experience' is determined by what your senses and brain make of the signal, and they are the most fickle things around. If you've tried out a few of those optical illusions, I think you know what I mean. Your brain can make straight lines seem bent, and confuse the same colors to be different under varying conditions. Same goes with sound.

The fact that we can produce a stereo signal digitally even if we do not record in stereo, 3D from 2D movies etc. means we're already using these illusions to an effect in audio/video already.


Edited by proton007 - 5/7/12 at 10:48pm
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