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post #1681 of 1790

I was auditioning speakers at a high end audio store once. I caught the salesman shifting the tone controls behind his back to add extra bass to the speakers he wanted me to buy. I NEVER trust comparison tests done at audio equipment stores. That's like trusting the mechanic at a used car lot to find all the potential problems in a car you're considering buying. Always find out the truth from a disinterested party.

 

As for learning to hear things no one else can hear... Discernment is something with taste in music. But we all have human ears. We can't learn to hear beyond the range of human hearing no matter how hard we try. We might as well try to sprout wings and fly.

 

Some people may not bother to pay attention closely enough to hear artifacting in low bitrate compressed music, but they can still hear it if they don't background the music. They don't learn to hear, they either pay attention or they don't. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this forum is paying attention.


Edited by bigshot - 7/11/13 at 5:44pm
post #1682 of 1790
Sorry, the difference is noticed immediately. If there was no difference, it would have sounded the same or minimal at best. It was substantial enough for me to purchase it after my listening session. I am as big a tightwad as the next guy so I don't come off a C note easily. Your pseudo science reasoning is not going to convince those who've given a listen and heard differences in performance any doubt. If it keeps others from trying, shame on them for being so easily convinced. If they choose not to at least try, it's their loss. For you to say there is no difference, I call BS. Wireworld Starlight USB cable vs a Radio Shack USB cable.
post #1683 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

Sorry, the difference is noticed immediately. If there was no difference, it would have sounded the same or minimal at best. It was substantial enough for me to purchase it after my listening session. I am as big a tightwad as the next guy so I don't come off a C note easily. Your pseudo science reasoning is not going to convince those who've given a listen and heard differences in performance any doubt. If it keeps others from trying, shame on them for being so easily convinced. If they choose not to at least try, it's their loss. For you to say there is no difference, I call BS. Wireworld Starlight USB cable vs a Radio Shack USB cable.

I've tried things before, including cables, and not heard differences. I've also tried things, thought I heard differences, tested some more, and failed to reliably hear those things. Also tried and consistently heard things for other stimulus. Is there an implication that people are living too much in theoryland?

Anyway, which part of which reasoning is "pseudo science" according to you?

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're not trying to imply that you're backed by or making any scientifically sound claims, right? Are you saying that nobody has any authority on these matters, nobody here does, or who or what else?

Also, which RadioShack USB cable? What DAC and what kind of computer? In general, excepting certain parts of "high end" where some are making things bad on purpose, there should be more difference between low-priced products as there are more places for problems and things to go wrong. Specificity of which RadioShack USB cable should be important, unless there really is some supposed property of the Wireworld Starlight which you're sure is not found in any cheaper common cables found at RadioShack? A bad loudspeaker could be bad in a wide number of different distinguishable ways, for example. Also, usually the characteristics of a cable—supposing they have some reasonable effect on the system—should be manifested in different ways depending on which systems you're connecting together, right? Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I'm curious of the thought process.
post #1684 of 1790

This screams like a boatload of bias.

 

Happy Camper, have you tried the Brilliant Pebbles by machina dynamica? If you say they are just stones I'm gonna reply with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

[...]
Your pseudo science reasoning is not going to convince those who've given a listen and heard differences in performance any doubt. If it keeps others from trying, shame on them for being so easily convinced. If they choose not to at least try, it's their loss. For you to say there is no difference, I call BS. Wireworld Starlight USB cable vs a Radio Shack USB cable.

Shame on people being so gullible/deceptible.

 

 

What differences did you hear?


Edited by xnor - 7/11/13 at 6:29pm
post #1685 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

Sorry, the difference is noticed immediately. If there was no difference, it would have sounded the same or minimal at best. It was substantial enough for me to purchase it after my listening session. I am as big a tightwad as the next guy so I don't come off a C note easily. Your pseudo science reasoning is not going to convince those who've given a listen and heard differences in performance any doubt. If it keeps others from trying, shame on them for being so easily convinced. If they choose not to at least try, it's their loss. For you to say there is no difference, I call BS. Wireworld Starlight USB cable vs a Radio Shack USB cable.


Been there done that Happy Camper.  I even sometimes think there are differences, and more careful or blind comparisons turn up nothing.  As Bigshot has said, you cannot hear beyond human hearing abilities.  There simply is nothing going on at that level that is audible.  Your response is one repeated thousands of times.  But your perceptions are more easily swayed than perhaps you realize is possible.  I have been there and had the same experience.  It is one that can leave you with a queasy feeling in your gut. 

 

Now this is "Sound Science".  Just saying I heard it and trust my hearing won't cut it here when what you heard is so unlikely to be part of physical reality. 

 

Does Wireworld give a reasonable, rational or testable explanations for what their USB does better?  In digital audio signals there is timing and bit values.  Get those right and there is no room for a difference.  The Wireworld USB doesn't transmit different bits as that has been tested.  It doesn't alter the timing as that has been tested too.  So what is going on, how could it sound different?

 

Of course maybe we are missing something, and it does sound really different.  That is where the blind testing comes in to check up on how real the difference is you are hearing. 

post #1686 of 1790
The only difference in the setup was the cable. Not even the volume control was adjusted.

Sony i3 using foobar/ASIO output to a Hilo Lynx DAC, balanced out to a Simaudio Moon 340i amp into HE-6. Material was flac from CD and vinyl rips @ 24/96.

I'm not making any claim for science but I'm not taking science doubletalk to tell me I'm either lying (which is often insinuated) or fooled.

The Radio Shack is a $10 two meter cable. Sorry, can't quote the model of the cable but it was a 2.0 USB a to b cable.

I believe the difference in cable geometry and silver clad wire on the signal lines reduces jitter and improved the timing. Whatever the reasoning, I did hear a difference in sound quality for the better.
post #1687 of 1790

Did the salesman at any time touch the equipment or stand near it?

 

Was it your Radio Shack cable, or did the store provide it?

 

Did the amp have any sort of switch to adjust impedance or to apply or disable tone controls?


Edited by bigshot - 7/11/13 at 6:44pm
post #1688 of 1790
No. He took it from the package and handed it to me. I finished listening to the song I was listening to and put the cable in and repeated that song with the new cable. I was not expecting anything. The equipment was mine except for the amp and I was the only one in the room with the gear. I'm telling you, there was no trickery and no other influence to this experience. I am now listening to it at home with my amps and am hearing the same improvements heard there. Live recordings are what I use for testing and I hear a better and more resolving sound from this cable. Since this is science and you demand proof, I'll step back. But all this banter about not having an impact is calling a huge number of hobbyists wrong by many a method and I think it's as inconclusive as our impressions seem to you. I'll leave it at that because I don't want this locked.
Edited by Happy Camper - 7/11/13 at 6:48pm
post #1689 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

Did the salesman at any time touch the equipment or stand near it?

Was it your Radio Shack cable, or did the store provide it?

Did the amp have any sort of switch to adjust impedance or to apply or disable tone controls?

The sales person did not touch the gear and left the room once he handed me the cable.

The Radio Shack cable was mine and has been in use since January in this system.

The amp had no tone controls or impedance adjustments. Model is listed above.
post #1690 of 1790

Doesn't matter what the salesman did or didn't. It's just another anecdote of another uncontrolled comparison.

 

Happy Camper, ask the hobbyists and pros at hydrogenaudio what they think of USB cables causing different sound. My guess is most of them think alike esldude, or bigshot. If you want to play the numbers game I have to disappoint you, since most people find stuff like expensive/audiophile USB or ethernet cables to clearly belong to the "nutty" part of audiophilia.


Edited by xnor - 7/11/13 at 7:05pm
post #1691 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Doesn't matter what the salesman did or didn't. It's just another anecdote of another uncontrolled comparison.

Happy Camper, ask the hobbyists and pros at hydrogenaudio what they think of USB cables causing different sound. My guess is most of them think alike esldude, or bigshot. If you want to play the numbers game I have to disappoint you, since most people find stuff like expensive/audiophile USB or ethernet cables to clearly belong to the "nutty" part of audiophilia.
So that's where it will lay. I'm nuts. rolleyes.gif

To me, this science forum has as much credibility as your claims to the contrary. It's your pros vs their pros.

So hydrogenaudio is any more or less qualified as this or any other audio forum? Experience is all any of us have to give personal views of a contentious topic. Coming into this hobby, I had the same non beliefs as those of you. In the 7 years of time here, I've got to experience all sorts of things first hand. I've been proved wrong in my beliefs by these experiences. But again, this is a science forum and I can't prove other than my honest impression that is recent. Controlled to me is leaving the entire rig static except changing out the cable. Same gear, same song, same volume control setting. That's as good as I can do to be impartial.
Edited by Happy Camper - 7/11/13 at 7:16pm
post #1692 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post


So that's where it will lay. I'm nuts. rolleyes.gif

 

Many jump to this conclusion too, and that is not it.  You are not nuts.  I never thought you were lying.  You are very .....human.  

 

 

It happens all the time.  Not because you aren't careful, not because you aren't honest, not because you are nuts.  You aren't fooling yourself, but you were fooled by the very common foibles of human hearing, and the ease with which things near limits of perception can be biased without your realizing it.

post #1693 of 1790
Since you now own both the cable and the radio shack cable, it would be very easy for you to set up a blind comparison test with a friend.
Edited by bigshot - 7/11/13 at 8:19pm
post #1694 of 1790
If the cable can lower the noise floor, it exposes those parts of the signal that were being masked. It's the micro details that become exposed. No, a cable can't make things appear that aren't there. But I see gear, all components, as putting some form of resistance (masking) to the signal. Better gear can bring out more of that signal but it's rare to impossible to get everything out of the original. Every part we can improve will expose more of that signal. Digital sound is even more influenced by software, conversions, physical limitations, etc. I feel even minor influences can have an impact on what we hear. It's not as cut and dry as it seems. With that, I'll back out and let this thread continue in a different direction. Just wanted to share an experience that changed my perceptions.
post #1695 of 1790
A USB cable either passes the packets along, or it doesn't. The difference between a properly functioning USB cable and one that wasn't would be noticeable, not subtle. With a USB cable, the noise floor can't be lower or higher than the specs for the file you're listening to. All you would hear is clicking and pops if one cable was not as good as another.

Try a blind test. See what happens. Maybe your friend will give you a refund if you do it quickly and find out for sure.

By the way, masking is something entirely different. That has to do with frequencies that pair. Imagine a middle C playing at the same time as a higher C. You would hear them as one note, not two.
Edited by bigshot - 7/11/13 at 8:28pm
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