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New Jecklin Float QA !!! - Page 22

post #316 of 663

Dear Complin

    I agree with you that HE90 has the deepest quality bass , the same with takeT H2+.  I think the new Jecklin Float may achieve that level

after hearing the finale of "The Resurrection"    The bass impact of the  takeT H2+ is better than the HE90.  I am not sure about the bass

impact (although it is very good) of the new Jecklin Float comparing to the HE90 or takeT H2+.  I will connect this weekend and compare .

     I also found that the SR009 is not very good with solid state amplifer (I use Stax 727 modded) .  The sound may be too bright for some song

The midrange as you mentioned sound thin and lack weight.  For me it seem like listening to Mozart it is very beautiful , smooth flowing but

not as exciting as Mahler, Tchaikovsky  , Mussorgsky   etc.

     From Sam73 and Muppetface's experience  , we need Quad Musik to solve the QA issue even both reported that the sound is amazing

post #317 of 663

Sorry to hear about your problems

 

Didn't someone say that the problem is the connectors?  I would ask Manfred Stein if it's the connectors on the cable.  If so he could ship you a new cable with the revised connectors, but perhaps may not be as simple as that?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Two three things.

 

1. These do indeed sound amazing. When they work.

 

2. I'm having a very worrisome issue with the right driver crackling and cutting in and out constantly. I'm hoping it goes away, as it seems to have for kiertijai. Because so far I'd say the problem is bad enough to make these unlistenable.

 

Edit:

 

3. Squealing in the left driver now and then as well. Brilliant.

post #318 of 663
Thread Starter 

     From Sam73 and Muppetface's experience  , we need Quad Musik to solve the QA issue even both reported that the sound is amazing

 

 

As I say before the Jecklin QA is the best sounding Headphone that I heard.There is no other HP come even close on the market. That is one side of the story.

 

Now i have to watch out what I can do?

Stax again?  If then 009? I dont think that I will be happy with that Phone. 

Again audeze LCD-3 ?I dont think so because they also have massiv problems and I went back from audeze because of these Problems.

 

So I think i would go for a Bryston BHA-1 with HE-6 or Beyer T1 and live with the Quality that these can deliver. I think this is my way.  

If I can not get the best than I go for the very good middle and be lucky with it.


Edited by Sam73 - 11/27/12 at 12:30pm
post #319 of 663

Seems like you are punishing yourself ! confused_face(1).gif

 

I would try a Stax 007 Mk1  and a Metrum Hex beerchug.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam73 View Post

So I think i would go for a Bryston BHA-1 with HE-6 or Beyer T1 and live with the Quality that these can deliver. I think this is my way.  

If I can not get the best than I go for the very good middle and be lucky with it.

post #320 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Two three things.

 

1. These do indeed sound amazing. When they work.

 

2. I'm having a very worrisome issue with the right driver crackling and cutting in and out constantly. I'm hoping it goes away, as it seems to have for kiertijai. Because so far I'd say the problem is bad enough to make these unlistenable.

 

Edit:

 

3. Squealing in the left driver now and then as well. Brilliant.

Sorry to hear your pair misbehaving as well. What you report is the typical issue Jecklin driver has since day one, back in early seventies. It is the INTERNAL 3  ( or 2, depending on how you count them ) connection points where driver proper interfaces with "external world", that is to say everything you can see. Juerg Jecklin wanted to allow for driver exchange ( was the driver itself that unreliable back then... ? ) without soldering. Drivers in Jecklin Float Electrostats are indeed replaceable in about five minutes per driver using screwdriver only, but you pay that convinience not having to solder while replacing the driver with the issue you experienced on the very first listen. Usually, it rears its ugly head about half a year or more into operation, at least that was my experience with Precide produced Floats. Those contacts are just not reliable - period.

 

Cure to get rid of this issue for good is easy. Soldering the drivers properly. If enough of users report this issue, Jecklin / QA might give in eventually, change this part of the design and call all units sold back for this mod to be done professionally at the factory, FREE of charge, not invalidating the warranty, as would most probably soldering modification in the field. 

 

Then, they stand a VERY good chance of sounding amazing - indefinitely. Worth going an extra mile for them, no doubt about it.

post #321 of 663

It is the INTERNAL 3  ( or 2, depending on how you count them ) connection points where driver proper interfaces with "external world", that is to say everything you can see. Juerg Jecklin wanted to allow for driver exchange ( was the driver itself that unreliable back then... ? ) without soldering. Drivers in Jecklin Float Electrostats are indeed replaceable in about five minutes per driver using screwdriver only, but you pay that convinience not having to solder while replacing the driver with the issue you experienced on the very first listen

Cure to get rid of this issue for good is easy. Soldering the drivers properly. If enough of users report this issue, Jecklin / QA might give in eventually, change this part of the design and call all units sold back for this mod to be done professionally at the factory, FREE of charge, not invalidating the warranty, as would most probably soldering modification in the field. 

 

Dear Analogsurviver,  will the soldering affect the sound quality?  Can that be happened in the case of Sam73?

post #322 of 663

Well I have to say I have had several pairs of the old Jecklin's for many years and never experienced this connection issue.  Had a diver that needed refurbishing through age (they are about 40'ish years old now) as stats can decline over time.

I think as these were aimed initially at the professional monitoring market, like all good manufacturers they would be made easy to repair like the Beyer's and Sennheisers of this world.  If they are one your everyday working tools then long outages while something is repaired becomes a real issue.  Remember, Jurg Jecklin earned his living as an audio professional and Tonmeister!    

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Sorry to hear your pair misbehaving as well. What you report is the typical issue Jecklin driver has since day one, back in early seventies. It is the INTERNAL 3  ( or 2, depending on how you count them ) connection points where driver proper interfaces with "external world", that is to say everything you can see. Juerg Jecklin wanted to allow for driver exchange ( was the driver itself that unreliable back then... ? ) without soldering. Drivers in Jecklin Float Electrostats are indeed replaceable in about five minutes per driver using screwdriver only, but you pay that convinience not having to solder while replacing the driver with the issue you experienced on the very first listen. Usually, it rears its ugly head about half a year or more into operation, at least that was my experience with Precide produced Floats. Those contacts are just not reliable - period.

 

Cure to get rid of this issue for good is easy. Soldering the drivers properly. If enough of users report this issue, Jecklin / QA might give in eventually, change this part of the design and call all units sold back for this mod to be done professionally at the factory, FREE of charge, not invalidating the warranty, as would most probably soldering modification in the field. 

 

Then, they stand a VERY good chance of sounding amazing - indefinitely. Worth going an extra mile for them, no doubt about it.


Edited by complin - 11/28/12 at 2:10am
post #323 of 663
Is it a good idea to purchase spare drivers?
post #324 of 663

Thanks for the info, analogsurviver.

 

Just wanted to update everyone on a few things.

 

The issue with the right driver progressed to the point where it sounded very faint most of the time, like Sam reported on his set, and periodically it would crackle and "pop" back to normal volume before falling quiet again. I tried something: putting the channel balance to the right side all the way and turning the volume up a bit past what I'd normally listen to, and it caused a lot of distortion in the sound, especially in the bass. Lots of popping and clipping. However it seemed to force the driver back to a normal volume again, albeit with distortion. Not to mention the left driver was squealing again. Dismayed, I unplugged the headphones and e-mailed Manfred who said he'd be glad to take a look at them if I shipped them back (he didn't mention covering shipping however, so I'm assuming I'd have to foot the bill, which is unfortunate).

 

However something strange happened. When I came home for my lunch break and plugged the Floats back in, the sound was fine on the right side. The driver seemed to be behaving itself. Puzzled, I continued to listen, and I noticed no more crackling or cutting in and out at that point. The left driver still had some faint squealing every now and then (usually after listening to music for a while). But the issues seem to have subsided largely.

 

This morning I've plugged them back in and the issues are still not present. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much yet. I'm still considering sending them in for inspection regardless, just for peace of mind. I'd be worried about the issue happening again out of the blue.

 

Now that I've been able to listen to these for a while without fussing about QC issues, I've been able to formulate some very early impressions.

 

* * * * * * *

 

I don't want to say too much yet, as it's still quite early in my evaluation, but so far I'm really impressed just in terms of sound quality alone. Impressed enough to where I'm willing to deal with the hassle of getting these serviced across the globe. Their tonal balance seems quite linear in the mids and highs, actually somewhat reminiscent of the SR-009 in their accuracy, though they strike me as slightly less bright in the upper region. Their sound has a definite electrostatic clarity to it, but with a lower-end weight and voluminous body more akin to the LCD-3. In fact, I'd say the bass may be a wee bit too prominent on this current setup (ie. with the Leben). When paired with a more transparent amp however I suspect it evens out, something I could partially confirm with a brief swap-out using a lowly T-amp (these STILL sound amazing even with a T-amp). The midrange is pure 'stat goodness, open and clear. The overall presentation is detailed, but it's far from analytically sterile in this regard, avoiding the "hi-fi sparkle" pitfall many audiophile headphones succumb to in an effort to throw details in the listener's face. In terms of pure detail extraction however, it's not going to outclass the SR-009 in my opinion.

One thing it has going for it however that no Stax can quite match is its spatial presentation. Likely due to the design of its drivers and frame, the sound "beams" in a manner similar to the K1000, Qualia, and H2+ (not to mention the original Floats). Like these headphones its sound possesses a truly expansive character that psychologically extends well beyond the confines of the headphone frame. Imaging and instrument separation are quite stunning, and there's a truly addictive sense of depth with these headphones. However as of now I still find the TakeT H2+ to be the top contender when it comes to conveying a sense of presence. Also there's something unusual about their presentation that is both really enjoyable but also a little distracting. It's most clear to me with vocals. Since lead vocals are usually front and center in a track, I think it's a helpful illustration: with the SR-009, center vocals sound like they're centered but somewhat in front of you; with the Floats, they literally sound smack dap in the center of your skull. Sort of like with IEMs that give a more "heady" presentation versus the more externalized sound of fullsized headphones. Oddly enough, everything else that falls outside the central-most point of a track's space sounds very distinctly "out there" relative to the listener. It's a strange combo, to hear instruments psychologically well beyond the frame of the headphones, but vocals (and other centered instruments) sound like they're between your ears. Takes a little while to get used to, but overall the headphones are very non fatiguing, and I could listen to them for a long time in a single sitting.

 

Thus far I can say I'm both thrilled and also exacerbated. In terms of sound quality, these headphones are shaping up to be top contenders, worthy of a place alongside the stats of Sennheiser and Stax, the esoteric piezo H2+, and legendary orthos. The biggest issue however is their build quality, which has been a major disappointment. The fact that these sound so exceptional to my ears only makes the QC problems all the more frustrating. I feel it's worth the effort of getting them fixed, and if the problems can be sorted out, I think I'll have a new favorite headphone.

post #325 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiertijai View Post

It is the INTERNAL 3  ( or 2, depending on how you count them ) connection points where driver proper interfaces with "external world", that is to say everything you can see. Juerg Jecklin wanted to allow for driver exchange ( was the driver itself that unreliable back then... ? ) without soldering. Drivers in Jecklin Float Electrostats are indeed replaceable in about five minutes per driver using screwdriver only, but you pay that convinience not having to solder while replacing the driver with the issue you experienced on the very first listen

Cure to get rid of this issue for good is easy. Soldering the drivers properly. If enough of users report this issue, Jecklin / QA might give in eventually, change this part of the design and call all units sold back for this mod to be done professionally at the factory, FREE of charge, not invalidating the warranty, as would most probably soldering modification in the field. 

 

Dear Analogsurviver,  will the soldering affect the sound quality?  Can that be happened in the case of Sam73?

If done properly, no. If you overheat anything or allow solder to come in touch with the diaphragm itself, then  ...

 

The connection should be done with a insulated flexible wire, a short arc or coil, NOT directly ( is not phisically possible anyway ) or with hard unflexible wire. Cable freaks - remember, any properly soldered cable, no matter how "bad" by audiophool standards, is infinitely superiour to intermittent contact. In any case, you must not solder on top of the "nail head"  - as this would alter the dimensions of the driver and you would no longer be able to assemble back together everything as it should be. Soldering is only possible at the side of the "nail" - and it is very little space in which you can work. IF IN DOUBT, DO NOT PROCEED - THE SAME GOES FOR VOIDING WARRANTY IF YOU DO IT BY YOURSELF OR HAVE IT DONE BY ANYONE THAT IS NOT  AUTHORIZED BY QA !

 

The exchangeable drivers have contacts made of steel "nail head" to copper "circle" on PCB - any mechanical activity ( they are transducers, and should vibrate ...), temperature and humidity changes do not help with the electrochemical potential problem of steel/copper - all sort of funny things possible on this joint. 

In case of Sam73 and   MuppetFace this is the most likely culprit - I doubt the freshly made driver could develop malfunction so soon. 

post #326 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiertijai View Post

Is it a good idea to purchase spare drivers?

If QA did at least average job with them, in a word - no. Buying spares does not correct the inherent issue with contacts - they  would remain the same. I would consider buying spares only if field reports of drivers actually developing failures would start creeping up.

 

Unless you are a pro - recording engineer, producer etc;  there is nothing more painful/stressfull than having to change the monitoring transducer, be it cans or speakers, during a project for any reason - usually only failure of said transducer would force you to do so. In that case, resounding YES.

post #327 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post

Well I have to say I have had several pairs of the old Jecklin's for many years and never experienced this connection issue.  Had a diver that needed refurbishing through age (they are about 40'ish years old now) as stats can decline over time.

I think as these were aimed initially at the professional monitoring market, like all good manufacturers they would be made easy to repair like the Beyer's and Sennheisers of this world.  If they are one your everyday working tools then long outages while something is repaired becomes a real issue.  Remember, Jurg Jecklin earned his living as an audio professional and Tonmeister!    

You are right on all counts. But remember Juerg Jecklin earned his living as THE  audio pro I respect the most with devices of his own design/manufacture, and was of course best possible ever present service to himself in any case of trouble. One can not expect from am average home listener to be able to understand/fix the contact issue - after all, Jecklin Floats QA do cost a considerable  amount of money and should be, after 40 years of experience,  "average home listener user"  friendly to begin with. 

 

In comparison, Stax, although regardless of model not as acoustically advanced as Floats, almost never have reliability issues.

post #328 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

The issue with the right driver progressed to the point where it sounded very faint most of the time, like Sam reported on his set, and periodically it would crackle and "pop" back to normal volume before falling quiet again. I tried something: putting the channel balance to the right side all the way and turning the volume up a bit past what I'd normally listen to, and it caused a lot of distortion in the sound, especially in the bass. Lots of popping and clipping. However it seemed to force the driver back to a normal volume again, albeit with distortion. Not to mention the left driver was squealing again. Dismayed, I unplugged the headphones and e-mailed Manfred who said he'd be glad to take a look at them if I shipped them back (he didn't mention covering shipping however, so I'm assuming I'd have to foot the bill, which is unfortunate).

 

However something strange happened. When I came home for my lunch break and plugged the Floats back in, the sound was fine on the right side. The driver seemed to be behaving itself. Puzzled, I continued to listen, and I noticed no more crackling or cutting in and out at that point. The left driver still had some faint squealing every now and then (usually after listening to music for a while). But the issues seem to have subsided largely.

 

This morning I've plugged them back in and the issues are still not present. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much yet. I'm still considering sending them in for inspection regardless, just for peace of mind. I'd be worried about the issue happening again out of the blue.

 

Now that I've been able to listen to these for a while without fussing about QC issues, I've been able to formulate some very early impressions.

 

* * * * * * *

The problem you described sounded very much like the diaphragm was sticking to the one side of the stators. 

 

When that happens to one of the drivers, the sound would be distorted and unbalanced.  After you disconnect the headphones for a while, the diaphragm bounces back to where it should be at.  And when you listen to the headphones again, everything is back to normal.

 

I would definitely send them back to Quad, because this can happens again anytime.

 

Wachara C.

post #329 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinsettawong View Post

The problem you described sounded very much like the diaphragm was sticking to the one side of the stators. 

 

When that happens to one of the drivers, the sound would be distorted and unbalanced.  After you disconnect the headphones for a while, the diaphragm bounces back to where it should be at.  And when you listen to the headphones again, everything is back to normal.

 

I would definitely send them back to Quad, because this can happens again anytime.

 

Wachara C.

Also a possibility - if QA decided to build drivers with next to no reserve regarding diaphragm tension vs polarizing voltage.  As there is voltage multiplier of the mains voltage involved in order to reach required polarizing voltage or bias, if your power line exceeds normal voltage tolerance, you can have this problem. The onset of instability in ES drivers is quiet "ticking" in the driver, ranging from once every few seconds to perhaps 10 or so Hz., without any signal being propagated through them and transformer supplying bias of course connected to the mains. It is also temperature and particularly humidity  dependant.  If this is the case most of the times, not only on very humid day (rain), then sending them back is in order.

 

Normally, if instability manifests itself by sticking to one of the stators, removing polarizing voltage (best unplugging them from the transformer) and leaving them alone for some time ( in a quiet enviroment, you should be able to hear the diaphragm freeing itself - some noise and then hushed pop ) , will rectify the problem.

post #330 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Thanks for the info, analogsurviver.

 

Just wanted to update everyone on a few things.

 

The issue with the right driver progressed to the point where it sounded very faint most of the time, like Sam reported on his set, and periodically it would crackle and "pop" back to normal volume before falling quiet again. I tried something: putting the channel balance to the right side all the way and turning the volume up a bit past what I'd normally listen to, and it caused a lot of distortion in the sound, especially in the bass. Lots of popping and clipping. However it seemed to force the driver back to a normal volume again, albeit with distortion. Not to mention the left driver was squealing again. Dismayed, I unplugged the headphones and e-mailed Manfred who said he'd be glad to take a look at them if I shipped them back (he didn't mention covering shipping however, so I'm assuming I'd have to foot the bill, which is unfortunate).

 

However something strange happened. When I came home for my lunch break and plugged the Floats back in, the sound was fine on the right side. The driver seemed to be behaving itself. Puzzled, I continued to listen, and I noticed no more crackling or cutting in and out at that point. The left driver still had some faint squealing every now and then (usually after listening to music for a while). But the issues seem to have subsided largely.

 

This morning I've plugged them back in and the issues are still not present. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much yet. I'm still considering sending them in for inspection regardless, just for peace of mind. I'd be worried about the issue happening again out of the blue.

 

Now that I've been able to listen to these for a while without fussing about QC issues, I've been able to formulate some very early impressions.

 

* * * * * * *

 

I don't want to say too much yet, as it's still quite early in my evaluation, but so far I'm really impressed just in terms of sound quality alone. Impressed enough to where I'm willing to deal with the hassle of getting these serviced across the globe. Their tonal balance seems quite linear in the mids and highs, actually somewhat reminiscent of the SR-009 in their accuracy, though they strike me as slightly less bright in the upper region. Their sound has a definite electrostatic clarity to it, but with a lower-end weight and voluminous body more akin to the LCD-3. In fact, I'd say the bass may be a wee bit too prominent on this current setup (ie. with the Leben). When paired with a more transparent amp however I suspect it evens out, something I could partially confirm with a brief swap-out using a lowly T-amp (these STILL sound amazing even with a T-amp). The midrange is pure 'stat goodness, open and clear. The overall presentation is detailed, but it's far from analytically sterile in this regard, avoiding the "hi-fi sparkle" pitfall many audiophile headphones succumb to in an effort to throw details in the listener's face. In terms of pure detail extraction however, it's not going to outclass the SR-009 in my opinion.

One thing it has going for it however that no Stax can quite match is its spatial presentation. Likely due to the design of its drivers and frame, the sound "beams" in a manner similar to the K1000, Qualia, and H2+ (not to mention the original Floats). Like these headphones its sound possesses a truly expansive character that psychologically extends well beyond the confines of the headphone frame. Imaging and instrument separation are quite stunning, and there's a truly addictive sense of depth with these headphones. However as of now I still find the TakeT H2+ to be the top contender when it comes to conveying a sense of presence. Also there's something unusual about their presentation that is both really enjoyable but also a little distracting. It's most clear to me with vocals. Since lead vocals are usually front and center in a track, I think it's a helpful illustration: with the SR-009, center vocals sound like they're centered but somewhat in front of you; with the Floats, they literally sound smack dap in the center of your skull. Sort of like with IEMs that give a more "heady" presentation versus the more externalized sound of fullsized headphones. Oddly enough, everything else that falls outside the central-most point of a track's space sounds very distinctly "out there" relative to the listener. It's a strange combo, to hear instruments psychologically well beyond the frame of the headphones, but vocals (and other centered instruments) sound like they're between your ears. Takes a little while to get used to, but overall the headphones are very non fatiguing, and I could listen to them for a long time in a single sitting.

 

Thus far I can say I'm both thrilled and also exacerbated. In terms of sound quality, these headphones are shaping up to be top contenders, worthy of a place alongside the stats of Sennheiser and Stax, the esoteric piezo H2+, and legendary orthos. The biggest issue however is their build quality, which has been a major disappointment. The fact that these sound so exceptional to my ears only makes the QC problems all the more frustrating. I feel it's worth the effort of getting them fixed, and if the problems can be sorted out, I think I'll have a new favorite headphone.

 

Excellent review. The best i've read. Many thanks. 

Think i'll wait to buy. When the 'teething' problems are gone. 

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