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Sennheiser HDVD800 Headphone Amplifier - Page 74

post #1096 of 2070

Yes, some people are only happy when their opinion is taken for granted.

 

You know Frank, Palmfish here is quite right and he or she is not the only person here having a problem with that so what makes you think otherwise? Quoted specifications of the PA system are there to show how specifications should be published. I suppose you never read engineering specifications for an audio product but I assure you, they are quite detailed and it is what consumers (by definition: "the people that buy" meaning not only enthusiasts like you but also professionals) expect. So yes, the lack of information is a problem and I don't see how this can be misunderstood as an off-topic subject. 

post #1097 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSARider View Post

Really? No one? You say that after reading the last page of posts?

 

 

There is a difference between being critical and "trashing" something.

 

When someone trashes something, it is an emotional response often accompanied by inflamatory language and unsubstantiated claims.

 

I have been critical of the HDVD800 for the reasons I have already mentioned. I have no stake in this discussion and no axe to grind. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and I have, I believe, expressed my opinion succinctly, without emotional affectation, and supported it with a logical foundation.


Edited by palmfish - 6/22/13 at 12:14pm
post #1098 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinV View Post

 

Now the theory that I sort of had in my head had been confirmed, Sennheiser double fail~

More companies need to make headphones because I don't want to purchase products from a company that's turning into the next Apple.

 

Hi there!

 

Please be careful with quoting others. The text that you quoted as being from me was not my words. As stated in my original post, those words were from the BitPerfect Support staff. I agree to most of their technical assessment, but not all of their suggested resolutions. I like the sound of the HDVD800 so much that I plan to keep it and frankly, at this point I'm not so sure that they "did something wrong". In fact, the current circumstances might be due the fact that they adhered to a rather noble predetermined goal for sound quality. They might have made a mistake or missed something during design and test evaluation, but they have made an excellent product. As we continue to follow their growing pains on the HDVD800 we will learn more about how dedicated they really are to their customers and their original goals for the product, and then determine whether the price point status is appropriate for such a product in each of our worlds.

 

(Although at this point there's probably a couple of things that they should do right that I am really hoping for)tongue.gif

 

As far as Apple goes, i've pretty well only used Apple products in my home since 1985. I just can't stand the grief I've had to deal with when using Microsoft products at work (or anywhere else) year after year. I want fun in my life and if I can buy a product that in my personal opinion works well, is fun, looks good, has most of the features that I want, and is reliable, even if it's a tad expensive because everyone else wants it too (and the company can get away with marking it up), I will buy what I want where I want (which will include both Sennheiser and Apple for my audio hobby wants and needs).

 

Competition is good, it keeps prices down and developers innovating. But like any other company, Apple, or Sennheiser, or ??? all have some serious faults. But when it comes to me buying product, it's always a comparison and trade off for issues as they stand at that point in time whether there are 2 or 200 companies involved. All of this reading and detailing shouldn't be getting in the way of having fun with our hobby, right? It should be adding to it.

post #1099 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank I View Post

The issue appears to happen with up- sampled files whether it hdtracks or another vendor. Honestly I hear no difference in 24/96 or 24/192 because I can play the same tracks on the Oppo BDP 105 and there is no hiss on the tracks so its not the files.

 

Frank, My guess is that if the 24/96 files that you were using had an excess of ultrasonic audio data in them, you would also hear the hiss on them when using the HDVD800 (so it IS in part the files). But there would still be no hiss on the Oppo (because it is probably designed to filter the ultrasonics out of the file prior to conversion). I am sure that all downconversion algorithms must apply a low pass filter to the data since it is being moved to a lower sampling rate, and therefore a lower Nyquist frequency. In other words, it may just be that the normal production of 24/96 (and lower rate) files statistically results in fewer files containing ultrasonic data. Especially if most recordings are mastered at a high rate and then down-converted to a lower rate that is finally sold.

 

I think that the main issue is exactly as you've pointed out, if a file appears to play just fine on one DAC but doesn't on a much more expensive one, there is certainly a customer issue that must be addressed (i.e., Sennheiser's challenge at the moment). When the problem occurs, it is triggered by audio files that don't meet spec. But having files that are out of spec won't always result in hiss since some DACs (e.g., the Oppo) will massage the file and bring it into spec prior to conversion. The HDVD800 does not currently seem to do this, hence the hiss issue.

 

But I'm not sure that this necessarily makes the DAC "defective". The thing that is really intriguing to me about all this, is the question "Should a DAC be required to repair all out of spec audio files that are sent to it"? 

 

1) One customer might justifiably say "Yes, I don't want to hear noise based on my audio files being screwed up and not built correctly"

 

2) Another might also justifiably say "No, I don't want the DAC to try and hide the fact that I just purchased expensive high rate files that are fakes" (e.g., original files recorded at 24/48 and then up sampled to 24/192 and sold for twice the price).

 

When I purchase a 24/192 track, I expect that it has more information in it than a 4x up-sampled 24/48 track. That's why I bought it in the first place. I don't want hi sample rates just for the sake of using up more storage on a music server or to see how effectively someone's up-converter algorithms can fill in the holes. I want to hear what was in the original recording.

 

3) Another customer might say "No, I don't want any other non-essential processing on the audio signal being done, I want it as clean as possible" So if the high resolution 24/196 Khz audio file marketplace in general sell files that meet industry standards, and if adding the additional processing to pre-filter audio files adds cost and potential sound degradation, then this would be a no brainer--don't add the pre filtering.

 

4) But what does customer 3 above think if the bulk of the hi resolution file industry is just being sloppy with their file formatting. True High resolution tracks that have just not had the ultrasonics cleaned out like they were supposed to. And what if it is fairly cheap and easy to add the preprocessing needed in a DAC to handle such file without noticeable sound degradation? Then the answer would likely be "Yes, give me the convenience of hearing my high rez files without audible artifacts due to their poor fi;e formatting"

 

There are several variables here that I don't have a good feel for (such as the extent of incorrectly formatted files in the hi-res industry), but since I'm sure that there are a lot of customers like customer 1 above, and since Sennheiser currently only supports cutomers 2 and 3 already, I am keen to know what they come up with.

 

- Jeff

post #1100 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

 

There is a difference between being critical and "trashing" something.

 

When someone trashes something, it is an emotional response often accompanied by inflamatory language and unsubstantiated claims.

 

I have been critical of the HDVD800 for the reasons I have already mentioned. I have no stake in this discussion and no axe to grind. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and I have, I believe, expressed my opinion succinctly, without emotional affectation, and supported it with a logical foundation.


Yes and there have been emotional responses - no one said it was you.wink.gif

post #1101 of 2070

A dumb question: where I can find Windows 7 drivers for HDVD 800 ? I do not have an optical drive on my PC...

On Sennheiser website there is no drivers on HDVD 800 product page, only manuals. Any advice would be appreciated

post #1102 of 2070
Well said above Jeff, I agree on your points. It sounds more like Sennheiser have gone for an 'ideal' approach. May well be the wrong in some folks opinion and right in others.
post #1103 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post

 

Frank, My guess is that if the 24/96 files that you were using had an excess of ultrasonic audio data in them, you would also hear the hiss on them when using the HDVD800 (so it IS in part the files). But there would still be no hiss on the Oppo (because it is probably designed to filter the ultrasonics out of the file prior to conversion). I am sure that all downconversion algorithms must apply a low pass filter to the data since it is being moved to a lower sampling rate, and therefore a lower Nyquist frequency. In other words, it may just be that the normal production of 24/96 (and lower rate) files statistically results in fewer files containing ultrasonic data. Especially if most recordings are mastered at a high rate and then down-converted to a lower rate that is finally sold.

 

I think that the main issue is exactly as you've pointed out, if a file appears to play just fine on one DAC but doesn't on a much more expensive one, there is certainly a customer issue that must be addressed (i.e., Sennheiser's challenge at the moment). When the problem occurs, it is triggered by audio files that don't meet spec. But having files that are out of spec won't always result in hiss since some DACs (e.g., the Oppo) will massage the file and bring it into spec prior to conversion. The HDVD800 does not currently seem to do this, hence the hiss issue.

 

But I'm not sure that this necessarily makes the DAC "defective". The thing that is really intriguing to me about all this, is the question "Should a DAC be required to repair all out of spec audio files that are sent to it"? 

 

1) One customer might justifiably say "Yes, I don't want to hear noise based on my audio files being screwed up and not built correctly"

 

2) Another might also justifiably say "No, I don't want the DAC to try and hide the fact that I just purchased expensive high rate files that are fakes" (e.g., original files recorded at 24/48 and then up sampled to 24/192 and sold for twice the price).

 

When I purchase a 24/192 track, I expect that it has more information in it than a 4x up-sampled 24/48 track. That's why I bought it in the first place. I don't want hi sample rates just for the sake of using up more storage on a music server or to see how effectively someone's up-converter algorithms can fill in the holes. I want to hear what was in the original recording.

 

3) Another customer might say "No, I don't want any other non-essential processing on the audio signal being done, I want it as clean as possible" So if the high resolution 24/196 Khz audio file marketplace in general sell files that meet industry standards, and if adding the additional processing to pre-filter audio files adds cost and potential sound degradation, then this would be a no brainer--don't add the pre filtering.

 

4) But what does customer 3 above think if the bulk of the hi resolution file industry is just being sloppy with their file formatting. True High resolution tracks that have just not had the ultrasonics cleaned out like they were supposed to. And what if it is fairly cheap and easy to add the preprocessing needed in a DAC to handle such file without noticeable sound degradation? Then the answer would likely be "Yes, give me the convenience of hearing my high rez files without audible artifacts due to their poor fi;e formatting"

 

There are several variables here that I don't have a good feel for (such as the extent of incorrectly formatted files in the hi-res industry), but since I'm sure that there are a lot of customers like customer 1 above, and since Sennheiser currently only supports cutomers 2 and 3 already, I am keen to know what they come up with.

 

- Jeff

I guess the outcome will  be interesting when they come up with a solution or detailed explanation but the 174.4 files I have are all dsd files and they cant be played on the hdvd800 without hiss so I been using the Oppo. Since most of what I listen to is CD or Sacd disc the problem for me is minimal and I do have the luxury of using another dac to play the files on the Oppo. I would think there is a way they can fix the issue. The amplifier and dac files up to 24/296hz sou d excellent with the sennheiser. 


Edited by Frank I - 6/22/13 at 1:59pm
post #1104 of 2070
Where is Rosmadi Mahmood?

He monitors these forums and has posted in this HDVD800 thread (about a month ago).

Sennheiser is obviously interested in what consumers / enthusiasts are saying and Rosmadi has directly helped head-fiers in the past (the cracking HD5XX headphone situation comes to mind).
post #1105 of 2070

This thread is very interesting.. 

post #1106 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarKu View Post

A dumb question: where I can find Windows 7 drivers for HDVD 800 ? I do not have an optical drive on my PC...

On Sennheiser website there is no drivers on HDVD 800 product page, only manuals. Any advice would be appreciated

 

There is/are windows drivers with installation software on the CD that comes with your HDVD800. There is also the instruction manuals and quick start guides for both the HDVD800 and HDVA600 in 15 different languages.

 

The entire contents of the CD is less than 99 MB. I don't know if it has Windows 7 specific drivers on it since I'm running a iMac, but I would be surprised if it didn't. If the real problem is just getting the drivers onto your PC, I would just take the CD (you received with your HDVD800) and a flash drive to a friends house who has an optical drive and just have them copy the contents of the entire disk onto the flash drive. Again the whole thing is only 99 MB and so shouldn't be an issue.

 

Plug the flash drive into one of your USB ports. You can then either let the Autostart.exe file do it's thing, or you can manually open the start.html file from a browser and initiate the installation from there.


Edited by wisemanja - 6/22/13 at 2:44pm
post #1107 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post

 

There is/are windows drivers with installation software on the CD that comes with your HDVD800. There is also the instruction manuals and quick start guides for both the HDVD800 and HDVA600 in 15 different languages.

 

The entire contents of the CD is less than 99 MB. I don't know if it has Windows 7 specific drivers on it since I'm running a iMac, but I would be surprised if it didn't. If the real problem is just getting the drivers onto your PC, I would just take the CD you got with the HDVD800 and a flash drive to a friends house who has an optical drive and just have them copy the contents of the entire disk onto the flash drive. Again the whole thing is only 99 MB and so shouldn't be an issue.

 

Plug the flash drive into one of your USB ports. You can then either let the Autostart.exe file do it's thing, or you can manually open the start.html file from a browser and initiate the installation from there.


Thank you, will do this tomorrow, as it is night time in this part of globe :)

Frustrating that Sennheiser didnt put HDVD800 drivers on their website..

post #1108 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Where is Rosmadi Mahmood?

He monitors these forums and has posted in this HDVD800 thread (about a month ago).

Sennheiser is obviously interested in what consumers / enthusiasts are saying and Rosmadi has directly helped head-fiers in the past (the cracking HD5XX headphone situation comes to mind).

 

 Check out post 1029 on this thread. He just gave us some interesting insight into all this about 36 hours ago.

post #1109 of 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Where is Rosmadi Mahmood?

He monitors these forums and has posted in this HDVD800 thread (about a month ago).

Sennheiser is obviously interested in what consumers / enthusiasts are saying and Rosmadi has directly helped head-fiers in the past (the cracking HD5XX headphone situation comes to mind).


He did post up during the week on this thread, he said he was in Germany and gave a reply from Axell Grell - he's trying to resolve I think.

post #1110 of 2070
Yup, you're right. I dont know why i missed that.

Sennheiser took care of the cracking plastic on the HD 5XX headphones very promptly so Im sure they are on the case here as well.
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