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Your favorite IEM you own/owned [Explain Why?] - Page 4

post #46 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by delladood View Post

 

I'm not very nitpicky about highs.  I can take them or leave them, as half the time they are not the main portion of the music I ride to.  The wind going 20mph pretty much takes all lows and highs and just cuts them out and leaves mids for the most part.  I'm not hypercritical about sound.  Some thing I cant stand.  but for the most part. im good with everything.  As far as burn in... The physics are there, and they arent there.  Everytime the magnets move, the diaphragm is flexed.  depending upon their flex limit, they shouldnt flex easier, or harder than they original did when first opened.  Brain burn in is 100% true.  Your ear will adjust to certain situations to perceive better.  Lets say your speaking to someone with a heavy accent. for the 1st month you wont understand a word they are saying.  In the next 2-3 months suddenly you can understand everything they say, and even carry on a conversation with them while they use words you aren't used to.  If you stand next a blaring amplifier your whole life in a rock concert, your ears will adapt and alter the sound and make it quieter to you(not to be confused with hearing loss/damage).  Adaptive and selective hearing... 

References: Physics, Audiology classes.

 


That all makes sense :)

 

post #47 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by delladood View Post

 

I'm not very nitpicky about highs.  I can take them or leave them, as half the time they are not the main portion of the music I ride to.  The wind going 20mph pretty much takes all lows and highs and just cuts them out and leaves mids for the most part.  I'm not hypercritical about sound.  Some thing I cant stand.  but for the most part. im good with everything.  As far as burn in... The physics are there, and they arent there.  Everytime the magnets move, the diaphragm is flexed.  depending upon their flex limit, they shouldnt flex easier, or harder than they original did when first opened.  Brain burn in is 100% true.  Your ear will adjust to certain situations to perceive better.  Lets say your speaking to someone with a heavy accent. for the 1st month you wont understand a word they are saying.  In the next 2-3 months suddenly you can understand everything they say, and even carry on a conversation with them while they use words you aren't used to.  If you stand next a blaring amplifier your whole life in a rock concert, your ears will adapt and alter the sound and make it quieter to you(not to be confused with hearing loss/damage).  Adaptive and selective hearing... 

References: Physics, Audiology classes.

 

 

If we choose to delve deeper into that logic, we could question the material that hold the diaphragm. It would be subject to some level of wear, according to the second thermodynamic law. Over time, the clamp holding the diaphragm could get looser by infinitely small measurements (think "limits" from calculus). It is completely true that there is a major brain burn in component, but one can't deny the results of those who have compared well broken in sets to those that are fresh out of the box, and found differences that are small and, in some instances, large.
 

 

post #48 of 259
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post

 

If we choose to delve deeper into that logic, we could question the material that hold the diaphragm. It would be subject to some level of wear, according to the second thermodynamic law. Over time, the clamp holding the diaphragm could get looser by infinitely small measurements (think "limits" from calculus). It is completely true that there is a major brain burn in component, but one can't deny the results of those who have compared well broken in sets to those that are fresh out of the box, and found differences that are small and, in some instances, large.
 

 

It would make sense.  As far as the clamp holding the diaphragm.  The diaphragm is generally made out of some sort of plastic type material.  If it is stretched to its elastic limit each time,  The material would eventually have to loosen up or in some cases.  Break the headphone.  Perhaps when headphones are played at to high of a volume to cause damage, the diaphragm has physical damaged done to it.  Hopefully I will be able to clarify some of this for everyone.  I'm trying to arrange it where I am doing research at my local audiology school.
 

 

post #49 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by delladood View Post

It would make sense.  As far as the clamp holding the diaphragm.  The diaphragm is generally made out of some sort of plastic type material.  If it is stretched to its elastic limit each time,  The material would eventually have to loosen up or in some cases.  Break the headphone.  Perhaps when headphones are played at to high of a volume to cause damage, the diaphragm has physical damaged done to it.  Hopefully I will be able to clarify some of this for everyone.  I'm trying to arrange it where I am doing research at my local audiology school.
 

 


However, if you're within the solely elastic range of whatever material is holding the driver, it will return to its original shape without any plastic (not the material, but the elastic vs plastic) deformation.  There is a way to solve for the approximate amount of deflections before the material will wear, but this is too complicated to go into over a forum online.  The wearing in the elastic region occurs through a micro-fatigue process, but this would take millions of cycles before the way would affect the material.  Considering most people say break in occurs within < 100 hours on an average headphone, this is not likely the case.  

Refrences: Senior in Mechanical Engineering in the College of Engineering at Michigan State University.

 

Tyll had showed previously that the frequency response doesn't really change, but its the distortion that changes.  Another thing to think about.

 


Edited by wdahm519 - 4/11/12 at 1:34pm
post #50 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post


However, if you're within the solely elastic range of whatever material is holding the driver, it will return to its original shape without any plastic (not the material, but the elastic vs plastic) deformation.  There is a way to solve for the approximate amount of deflections before the material will wear, but this is too complicated to go into over a forum online.  The wearing in the elastic region occurs through a micro-fatigue process, but this would take millions of cycles before the way would affect the material.  Considering most people say break in occurs within < 100 hours on an average headphone, this is not likely the case.  

Refrences: Senior in Mechanical Engineering in the College of Engineering at Michigan State University.

 

Tyll had showed previously that the frequency response doesn't really change, but its the distortion that changes.  Another thing to think about.

 


I think the < 100 hour break in is the tips/pads breaking in (rather than the actual drivers).  They conform easier to your head/ear canals with time.  This is what I've noticed over time with all my tips, they form soft soft spots in some areas, but stay stiff in others.  I don't use headphones too often, but do have a few pairs, my Philips Downtowns pads' memory foam does seem like it "breaks in" as well.  IDK if any of you experienced this, but my Etymotic triple flange tips (all three sets) have slowly turned from round to slightly ovular (ear canal has a slight ovular shape to it).  So something does happen with the fit.  A fit change can change sound.  The question remains, does it?

 

Although the FR graph doesn't change that much, 1-2 dB changes in the midrange, as well as 2-5 dB changes in the highs can prove to be audible.  The question is if it's audible over 300 hours (I don't think it would be, but it can). 

 

@OP, when's your birthday (or did it already pass?)?  I'm just curious.

 


Edited by tinyman392 - 4/11/12 at 3:26pm
post #51 of 259
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post


However, if you're within the solely elastic range of whatever material is holding the driver, it will return to its original shape without any plastic (not the material, but the elastic vs plastic) deformation.  There is a way to solve for the approximate amount of deflections before the material will wear, but this is too complicated to go into over a forum online.  The wearing in the elastic region occurs through a micro-fatigue process, but this would take millions of cycles before the way would affect the material.  Considering most people say break in occurs within < 100 hours on an average headphone, this is not likely the case.  

Refrences: Senior in Mechanical Engineering in the College of Engineering at Michigan State University.

 

Tyll had showed previously that the frequency response doesn't really change, but its the distortion that changes.  Another thing to think about.

 


Right, but assuming every headphone company programs the driver to flex to only a certain limit.  It really is reaching its elastic limit.  Not to say that it will show physical change.  But in actuality, the driver may flex easier as time carries on.  As far as the amount of cycles between a neutral position and a diaphragm at its "Elastic limit" or however much it flexes is reached rather quickly many of times.  The best test for this.  Buy a cheap pair of ebay headphones.  break the open while keeping the driver intact.  Play a large bass song.  You will see the driver moves so quickly that it is nearly impossible for the eye to see the diaphragm move up and back down to its starting position.  The amount of air displaced on dynamic drivers is tremendous because of its ability to move SO quickly. 

post #52 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post


However, if you're within the solely elastic range of whatever material is holding the driver, it will return to its original shape without any plastic (not the material, but the elastic vs plastic) deformation.  There is a way to solve for the approximate amount of deflections before the material will wear, but this is too complicated to go into over a forum online.  The wearing in the elastic region occurs through a micro-fatigue process, but this would take millions of cycles before the way would affect the material.  Considering most people say break in occurs within < 100 hours on an average headphone, this is not likely the case.  

 

 

A 12 kHz frequency is 12,000 cycles in a single second. That's one million cycles within 83 seconds. 

 

I don't believe that burn in can altogether change an iem's signature, ie, the IE8 losing it's midbass hump over time, or the ASG-1 becoming less midcentric (unless the manufacturer has horrible quality control, where the driver materials are free to rattle about). I do believe though that it's quite possible for the diaphragm, and the materials holding it, can be shifted/worn/loosened to the point where it affects the sound. Whether this change will be negative or positive all depends on the luck of the draw.
 

 

post #53 of 259
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post

 

A 12 kHz frequency is 12,000 cycles in a single second. That's one million cycles within 83 seconds. 

 

I don't believe that burn in can altogether change an iem's signature, ie, the IE8 losing it's midbass hump over time, or the ASG-1 becoming less midcentric (unless the manufacturer has horrible quality control, where the driver materials are free to rattle about). I do believe though that it's quite possible for the diaphragm, and the materials holding it, can be shifted/worn/loosened to the point where it affects the sound. Whether this change will be negative or positive all depends on the luck of the draw.
 

 

Haha I'm beginning to love your knowledge and input tongue_smile.gif.  Thanks for reinforcing my theory! I could tell a diaphragm cycles an unimaginable amount of times.
 

 

post #54 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by delladood View Post


 It really is reaching its elastic limit.  Not to say that it will show physical change.


How would that be reaching its elastic limit?  Its only moving, what, mm's if that?  This isn't a brittle material.  Its elastic region is not small.

 

post #55 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post

 

A 12 kHz frequency is 12,000 cycles in a single second. That's one million cycles within 83 seconds. 

 

I don't believe that burn in can altogether change an iem's signature, ie, the IE8 losing it's midbass hump over time, or the ASG-1 becoming less midcentric (unless the manufacturer has horrible quality control, where the driver materials are free to rattle about). I do believe though that it's quite possible for the diaphragm, and the materials holding it, can be shifted/worn/loosened to the point where it affects the sound. Whether this change will be negative or positive all depends on the luck of the draw.
 

 


Right, I understand that but total overall deformation = (PL^3)/(3EI) for a beam.  No matter what shape, its depedant on length.  I was talking on a per meter basis.  This deflection is maybe 25mm at most (driver housing length).  So, that plastic could oscillate a lot more than a few million times before reaching a fatigue stress that begins to weaken its structure.

 

Not to mention, the plastic isn't really moving that much unless its at its resonant frequency, so before you go assuming that you need to take a summation of all the input signal excitations in the material -- you don't.

 


Edited by wdahm519 - 4/11/12 at 6:09pm
post #56 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post


Right, I understand that but total overall deformation = (PL^3)/(3EI) for a beam.  No matter what shape, its depedant on length.  I was talking on a per meter basis.  This deflection is maybe 25mm at most (driver housing length).  So, that plastic could oscillate a lot more than a few million times before reaching a fatigue stress that begins to weaken its structure.

 

Not to mention, the plastic isn't really moving that much unless its at its resonant frequency, so before you go assuming that you need to take a summation of all the input signal excitations in the material -- you don't.

 



Ok you win. I'm in Pharm. D, not engineering biggrin.gif

 

I still believe that burn in exists. The magnitude of the changes depend on highly variable...variables redface.gif

post #57 of 259
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post


Right, I understand that but total overall deformation = (PL^3)/(3EI) for a beam.  No matter what shape, its depedant on length.  I was talking on a per meter basis.  This deflection is maybe 25mm at most (driver housing length).  So, that plastic could oscillate a lot more than a few million times before reaching a fatigue stress that begins to weaken its structure.

 

Not to mention, the plastic isn't really moving that much unless its at its resonant frequency, so before you go assuming that you need to take a summation of all the input signal excitations in the material -- you don't.

 



what he said!confused_face_2.gif. You win in my book as well.  I am but a simple audiology undergrad currently...  Eke2k6.  Defeat! we are feeling it frown.gif

post #58 of 259

So, back to the OT's topic, the CK10's are another good choice for analytical earphones

post #59 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post



Ok you win. I'm in Pharm. D, not engineering biggrin.gif

 

I still believe that burn in exists. The magnitude of the changes depend on highly variable...variables redface.gif



This post gave me a good laugh :p 

post #60 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahm519 View Post

Right, I understand that but total overall deformation = (PL^3)/(3EI) for a beam.  No matter what shape, its depedant on length.  I was talking on a per meter basis.  This deflection is maybe 25mm at most (driver housing length).  So, that plastic could oscillate a lot more than a few million times before reaching a fatigue stress that begins to weaken its structure.

 

Not to mention, the plastic isn't really moving that much unless its at its resonant frequency, so before you go assuming that you need to take a summation of all the input signal excitations in the material -- you don't.

 

someone give this guy a medal
He just physicified (this word, from now on, exists) this thread.

 

Love it.

:D

 

 

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