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**Hifiman HE-400 Impressions and Discussion Thread** - Page 960

post #14386 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post

No I get it. If they updated their website it would probably go a long way toward bolstering some consumer-confidence.

 



I think they need to hire a PR guy and a website designer.... If they can afford R&D and manufacture of these supposedly good amps / dacs then they should be able to afford to a) make a decent website b) get better distribution c) get a translator to actually write proper english on the website.... I agree that however good they are it does not give me much confidence to pay them $500 with the current website / distribution etc.
post #14387 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

I think they need to hire a PR guy and a website designer.... If they can afford R&D and manufacture of these supposedly good amps / dacs then they should be able to afford to a) make a decent website b) get better distribution c) get a translator to actually write proper english on the website.... I agree that however good they are it does not give me much confidence to pay them $500 with the current website / distribution etc.


+1. 

I'm sure they make good equipment and that they are honest people, but their website just gives the impression that if I had a problem, I could easily have major trouble communicating with them about it. Whether that be a shipping problem, a broken unit, etc. Even Little Dot's website is so much better for example, and I doubt it cost a bundle to put together. 

post #14388 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by manbear View Post


+1. 

I'm sure they make good equipment and that they are honest people, but their website just gives the impression that if I had a problem, I could easily have major trouble communicating with them about it. Whether that be a shipping problem, a broken unit, etc. Even Little Dot's website is so much better for example, and I doubt it cost a bundle to put together. 

 



Also with such a low budget website and "chinglish" spelling it makes you less confident that you will get support in the future etc. for example if you bought a $500 amp from them and needed a repair in 5 years.... Their current website etc. does not give you much confidence that they will even be around to fix it.... Most of the lesser known brands such as Schiit, Yulong etc. at least have decent distribution and websites. I would probably get an Audio GD because they look like just what I am looking for, but when you are talking about $400-$2000 for products, I do not think that their current website etc. is good enough.
post #14389 of 18107
Sorry my previous posts have nothing to do with the HE400... Got a bit carried away with my rant there, apologies ppl. biggrin.gif
post #14390 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post

No I get it. If they updated their website it would probably go a long way toward bolstering some consumer-confidence.

 



I think they need to hire a PR guy and a website designer.... If they can afford R&D and manufacture of these supposedly good amps / dacs then they should be able to afford to a) make a decent website b) get better distribution c) get a translator to actually write proper english on the website.... I agree that however good they are it does not give me much confidence to pay them $500 with the current website / distribution etc.
This happens to a lot or quality chinese brands...i feel the same about lafigaro and darkvoice..those brands need better marketing also... But i dont know if it will happen..as they sell well in their parts of the world..so they dont feel the need to hire a expensive english spoken pr manager..they earn their money anyway..only the ones in the know in rest of the world will buy one amp of theirs...cough...me..cough..couch. The rest buys shiit burson .etc..big budget marketing companies. As those sound more reliable and their websites sexier..

And nicholars: Ur right about the trust thingie..somehow they have to find a way to improve that....BUT..did u know that people who bought a 339 and had big problems with it (as all brands experience) that lafigaro just sends a complete new one? I was stunned when i read that the first time...i cant recall any premium US or european based brand doing that! So yes..they site is rubbish (as most of the chinese brands), if u mail them u wait weeks for reply and if they do reply its like they used a corrupted version of google translate..but when u do get through with ur problem..they are more willing to replace it all (some customers even have 2 now!..they didnt need to sent it back!).. Thats also why u almost never see one for sale..as the customers know they have something special...Just my 123.. And i know other chinese brands do the same..if only that trust issue!
Edited by hifimanrookie - 11/15/13 at 11:33am
post #14391 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by maserati2303 View Post
 

Can you make a comparison hd600 for resolution and treble?

Are those the only two things you care about? The two headphones are drastically different.

post #14392 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by manbear View Post

1) It sounds like you do think that different amps sound different, just that the difference isn't typically worth the money. You said you heard a difference between your two receivers, as well as between your two sound cards. Subjectively, yes, but still. Basic. We need them to say that there's an objective difference between amps. Nevertheless, 2) I think you will agree that without hearing or measuring the Lyr, you cannot be subjectively or objectively certain about how it compares to other amps. You are merely speculating based on your "audio values."

I think you are exaggerating the cost issue. Personal finances aside, nobody has mentioned amps in the 30x more than the o2 price range... 3) Everybody has to make their own decisions about what's worth the money to them, but that's not really the issue here. We're just talking about amps and how they compare. Remember that tastes are subjective, and that objective measurements can't accurately predict what a person would prefer. Some people are perfectly happy in this hobby by sticking with their subjective impressions, regardless of what measurements say they "should" hear. Again, I don't see the value of "should" when it runs counter to one's actual experiences. But that is IMO. 4) You are free to place more value on the "shoulds," if that's what makes this hobby enjoyable to you. Enjoyability is subjective for everyone.

Great - so much for not getting dragged into debate. Sorry for the wall post in advance, I know how much some people hate that.

 

1) Exactly - the issue of cost is relevant to me, and (I personally) am not willing to risk that much more money on an amp for the sake of a (better/different) sound. I know it is highly unlikely I'll get as big a change in sound as there is a change in price (diminishing returns which I noticed you did not comment on). I see no harm in strongly urging others to adopt my mindset, since no one likes getting / feeling ripped off and my audio values are informed, in part, from having been ripped off in the past. They are also informed by my budget, which was super-damaged by the HE-400s as it was. My poverty will keep me priced out of the upper echelons for a long time of that I am sure.

 

2) Sure - until I can get my hands on something like a Lyr, I am just ********ting and speculating that it isn't worth $450 dollars or that it will not make a worthwhile impact on the listening experience. I'll just ignore the fact that it uses tubes which are already outside my preferences (in part for added cost of ownership). I'll leave it to you and probably Fearless1 to make a case that I should spend 112.5% of the cost of my HE-400s for X (insert number / adjective) improvement in sound. Not trying to be rude here, but if this discussion comes down to "only owners of said equipment can make proper recommendations of said equipment" (not those with experience or who can learn from reading, common sense, etc.), I suppose we should all just shut up and let the resident elitists make the call - since they are the ones that blow money on the really expensive stuff and therefore 'know' the headphone world subjectively and objectively from the top-down and back up again. I'd put money on the likelihood that you could get a person to 100% satisfaction WITHOUT an amp upgrade long before I'd put money on an amp making all the difference.

 

3) This is very much the issue, or I suppose there wouldn't be people leaping to the defense of more expensive tube amps and insinuating I am some sort of hypocrite for recommending NOT spending money on something. Originally, I said no one should not buy a $450 amp to go with his $400 phones' (because it would be stupid - uh-oh). So, actually, cost is quite relevant here because I made it part of the criteria. Especially given that guys like Nicholars have discovered the value of EQing as an effective tool for rectifying non-preferable audio reproduction. I was simply building on that by claiming that trying to buy a different sound through the purchase of different (in this case more expensive) amps is ultimately a very inefficient ('wasteful') way to try to get a better sound. Dollar for dollar, I think amp impact is trite compared to just buying new headphones. If I were Nicholars personal CFO, I would forbid such purchases prior to exploring other options first.

 

Amps supply power-that is the first and most important criteria. So I DID say I heard a difference between a Sony receiver and a Yamaha at the same price point. Notice I said it was "louder with less power" - not "warmer, with gently sloped treble and higher resolution". The experience does not discredit the value of subjective / objective observation, and it does not prove them either. It doesn't make a case for 'always buy Yamaha'. It DOES make a case for the fact that careful subjective / objective measurements would probably have backed up my impression that, dollar for dollar, Yamaha was the better buy. So, any way we can get a honest leg up on spending our hard earned money wisely is a great thing. Unless of course, you have a ton of money, in which case you probably don't give one iota of a crap about my perspective. I am surprised at the anti-consumer attitudes of some people.

 

4) There is no good reason I can think of why some baseline performance can't be guided, if not enhanced enhanced, by objective criteria. Literally every industry focused on any sort of technology in the world does this, with damn good reason. Harmon Kardon doesn't spend millions on R&D to produce a bunch of crap at arbitrary price points that they aren't sure will please a massive audience (their target 'market'). They painstakingly search for objective data on which they can enhance product development (and yes, it is possible to take something formerly 'subjective' and make it objective - that is called science and they use it to study preferred frequency response). And yes, cost is a major consideration in that process, and eventually all their hard work and major considerations become MY major considerations. Did their level of cost / performance meet or exceed my expectations or not? Did their competitors deliver comparable performance at an even lower price point or not? If I can't test HK against a Lyr, how much do I trust that they ALWAYS deliver the goods? I bet HK would give an arm and a leg to be the first company that could, through the prerogatives of science, be guaranteed that their next headphone or amp would be irresistible to everyone that heard it at a price highly profitable to them. Even if that were a $10 dollar headphone with a $9.99 profit margin, the search would be over. You simply CANNOT get there from the perspective of "oh well, to each their own". And you can't convince me that, from that point on, it would make sense to recommend to someone that they spend $1,000 when the $10 is superior. Some companies really want to know how to deliver a better sound, and sound science is there to provide the answers. The whole objectivist / subjectivist debate is stupid to engage in when acting as though neither businesses nor consumers can understand value. And that, IMHO is what you are doing when you decide that price does not matter and that performance cannot be judged except on individual terms and individual experience.

 

I stand by my assertions, which are that amps shouldn't sound different, even if they do. Notice I never said that was necessarily a problem - I think you added that. Consumers deserve information, period. I wouldn't by a house without it, and I won't by headphones without it. And I sure won't recommend really expensive amps to people trying not to spend tons of money on minor tweaks.

 

Can I have a beer now? Lol.

 

Anyway, how about this nugget - recently, Consumer Reports, a highly respected magazine that works tirelessly to liberate consumers from BullSh*t claims to get them more value, gave the Grado Sr 80i's their top score for headphones, which matched their score for the second place HE-400s. Were they or were they not doing a grave injustice to people like us, that went for the HE-400s when they could apparently have spent far less for equal-awesomeness? By what criteria were they supposed to judge headphones (Hint - there always has to be specific criteria to judge anything)?

:beerchug: 


Edited by MrMateoHead - 11/15/13 at 12:17pm
post #14393 of 18107

Hi,

 

Can someone give me an idea of the  Hifiman HE-400's level of isolation?.i.e- when you place them over your ears (without music playing ) ,what level of isolation> from 0% for no noticeable difference in isolation to 100% for complete isolation . I realize they are open designed headphones so isolation will be relatively very low .

 

But how low? Can you still hear someone whisper etc ?.

 

Thanks

post #14394 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post
 


Fearless1, I don't know if you have a problem with me, per say, or if you simply don't like my opinions. But I draw from a range of audio experiences when I seek to help others, and have made my decisions in part with the good advice of people on this forum and elsewhere. When I make my own recommendations, I do so while drawing on things which I am directly familiar (the O2, in this case, and several different computer audio setups I have used with different cans I have owned). And no, I don't recount my history of audio with my user-profile on this forum like others do. I don't see the use in that.

 

If I were a millionaire, maybe I could buy lots of different gear to gratify your need for opinions to be based on subjective impressions and real product experiences. If I were an industry schill, maybe I could wax poetic about how sometimes we should spend lots of money on audio equipment because doing so "is just better". I have spent thousands on audio over the course of my life, and have experienced some of the 'best' in different settings. You'd never convince me that I was missing out because I hadn't spent a huge wad on a DAC or 80-watt amp, when everyone knows you're into ear damage after the first milliwatt (but maybe you don't care about such things).

 

How about next time my opinion comes up short, you try filling in for my ignorance with some of your knowledge on whatever the subject is. Just remember that this is the HE-400 thread, not the "you shoulda bought LCDs like me thread". That would be a lot better than attacking me personally, or judging me as some kind of make-believe audio lover or objectivist. Jusdgements that, btw, would be hilarious and wrong, and increasingly are spoken like someone who is here to flame - not contribute.

In no way am I trying to insult you, I was simply pointing out that you seem to make comments on gear based on what you read. I own the O2, I think it sounds thin and shrill on the HD650, HE400 and HE500. It sounds fantastic with the D7ks and some of my other cans. There is synergy with certain amps and headphones. I can say that definitely because I own it.

 

You come across as a purist who wants an amp that does not have a sound signature, yet you EQ??? . You also made a comment about the LCD-2 being "lifeless and boring" and Schiit gear, have you ever heard/owned any of them?  I just detest when people comment on gear and sway others based on what they read. We all hear different.

 

If I came off as offensive, my apology, but I stand by the premise if you have never heard gear in person do not comment on it.


Edited by Fearless1 - 11/15/13 at 12:30pm
post #14395 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless1 View Post but I stand by the premise if you have never heard gear in person do not comment on it.

+1

post #14396 of 18107
Quote:
 Are those the only two things you care about? The two headphones are drastically different.

OK.

post #14397 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio-Rhythm View Post
 

Hi,

 

Can someone give me an idea of the  Hifiman HE-400's level of isolation?.i.e- when you place them over your ears (without music playing ) ,what level of isolation> from 0% for no noticeable difference in isolation to 100% for complete isolation . I realize they are open designed headphones so isolation will be relatively very low .

 

But how low? Can you still hear someone whisper etc ?.

 

Thanks

They are as loud on your head as they are beside them, 0 isolation on all Hifiman phones.


Edited by Fearless1 - 11/15/13 at 2:39pm
post #14398 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by maserati2303 View Post
 

OK.

I was actually interested in helping you out, I just don't know what you mean. The treble on the HE-400 is near ear-piercingly crisp and the HD600 is laid back but still detailed. Depending on equipment, they have about equal resolution IMO.

post #14399 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post
 

Great - so much for not getting dragged into debate. Sorry for the wall post in advance, I know how much some people hate that.

 

< long quote >

1) Ok... It's important to consider value, but you should realize that your concept of value isn't the same as everyone else's. Some people like to spend a larger percent of their budget on audio, some people have a larger budget, etc. I'm not suggesting that you change your concept of value, but I am suggesting that you don't impose your concept of value on other people. I agree that diminishing returns exist, but it's up to individuals to decide for themselves how far they want to go. There is a huge difference between politely saying that you don't think a given amp is worth the money and calling it "stupid" to be interested in a nicer amp. 

3) No, value is not the issue here, because it's a personal, individual matter. Sound is the issue. We can and should tell each other how something sounds, so we can decide on our own if the differences are worth the money. When you make cost a criterion without separating it from sound, you can only speak for yourself. Which is fine, if you only speak for yourself. Again, there is a big difference between stating your opinion and "forbidding" purchases for other people. Just as you don't like people leaping to the defense of more expensive gear just to justify their purchases, you shouldn't rush to attack expensive gear to justify your own less expensive purchases. 

It's really pretty basic. We are all entitled to our opinions, but we should share them without putting down gear we haven't heard or can't afford. I can't afford 1k+ gear either. In fact, my DAC and amp together cost less than my HE-400. But I don't go around crapping on expensive gear or saying that it's not worth the money, nor do I get defensive when someone says something positive about gear I can't afford. If I want to be informative and helpful to other people, I have to separate my opinions on sound from my opinions on value. You have them jumbled up in an intensely personal mix that doesn't necessarily apply to other people. 

post #14400 of 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio-Rhythm View Post
 

Hi,

 

Can someone give me an idea of the  Hifiman HE-400's level of isolation?.i.e- when you place them over your ears (without music playing ) ,what level of isolation> from 0% for no noticeable difference in isolation to 100% for complete isolation . I realize they are open designed headphones so isolation will be relatively very low .

 

But how low? Can you still hear someone whisper etc ?.

 

Thanks

I'd say in the range of 0-5% isolation. Close to nothing. With no music playing, I can hear my hard drive moving, the heating system vents, etc. Don't usually have people whispering in my ears though :wink_face:

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