Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › **Hifiman HE-400 Impressions and Discussion Thread**
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

**Hifiman HE-400 Impressions and Discussion Thread** - Page 959

post #14371 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saren View Post


There are many who believe in just that.

Have a read through this http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

Mind you if you think you can hear differences, so if you think so. I don't want to argue with you about it as it is your enjoyment of your equipment that matters.
Of course, there's no argument intended and reading back over my post, maybe I said it a little strong in a way that could possibly offend. I take that back. One's own enjoyment is paramount and I prove that myself by saying that my HD598s get more head time than my HE-400s. I do prefer them (for most things). Many wouldn't, but there you go!

There's data available though that prove measurably different frequency responses and dynamic range characteristics between different amps, so I'm not going to agree that black is indeed white for the sake of political correctness and/or not offending anybody :-P (No offence meant, of course)

Bringing it back on topic; for certain music, I'll listen to my 400s through the valve amp, just to tame down that treble spike. To be honest, there isn't a night and day difference between the sound from the Bravo Audio Ocean to my Asus STX. The Asus has more dynamic range and extremes of frequencies, but the Bravo has more warmth and smoothness (to be expected from a valve) and seems to (getting subjective now) gel the elements of music together more cohesively, or more naturally, possibly at the expense of pin point imaging. Anyway, most of the time, the latter effect works well for my tastes with the HE400s.

I'm also trying to make the point that, despite the obvious differences on paper of the above mentioned amps, their respective 'sounds' are not worlds apart. There are subtle differences, yes, but it's not make or break.

Happy listening, people. Listen to what YOU want, how YOU want and (if you're lucky) when YOU want!! :-)
Edited by amigomatt - 11/15/13 at 3:22am
post #14372 of 18063

I think the biggest thing though to those tests are that they are using amplifiers that are known to be transparent and not tailored to different frequency responses, which by principal would be straying from truly being transparent. I like to think a good amplifier sounds like nothing, adds no flavor to the sound at all. Some prefer an amplifier that has been designed to change the FR range slightly. What I mean with the amps sounding the same is that two truly transparent SS amps regardless of price should sound pretty much identical if you were to be blindfolded.

 

But there are amplifiers that have been tuned a bit different which are not truly flat to the recording and may very well change the sound of headphones. Tube amps are different as they add slight enjoyable distortion to the sound which to many can be very enjoyable and I don't think many argue that there is no difference there.

 

Ultimately I apologize if I seemed confrontational there. 

 

:beerchug:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlxx View Post
 

 

Those Addicted to Audio guys are great. Lucky for them I live a 30 minute drive away or I would be there everyday. When I walk in, they are thinking, not him again. I make them open up all the boxes so I can try things. One time I actually surprised them and bought something. Sometimes they like to show me this big fat power cable and tell me how good it is. But I am thinking, between the amp and the power point there is this big fat power cable, but behind the power point on the wall to the switchboard, there is still the $2 crappy power wire. Can't see how it can be any good. They need to start distributing the Hifiman stuff though, so I can try the HE-6/HE500.

 

It almost seems out of the ordinary that they don't have hifiman's when they practically have every other brand out there. Headphonic has the Hifiman's, so I'm surprised A2A don't also get them. Jaben had them in the past but I believe they stopped stocking them.

 

Anyway, any HE-400 listeners out there should definitely check out Infected Mushroom - Classical Mushroom - fantastic album especially for the He-400.


Edited by Saren - 11/15/13 at 3:41am
post #14373 of 18063
Yes that is not a bad thing because transparent and flat is not necessarily the best sounding (to me anyway).... I do think that DAC's are pretty over-rated though and I would not bother spending much money on one again unless I won the lottery or something. I think the DAC part of the STX is actually really good.... Sounds better (basically the same anyway) to me than most of the external DAC's I have used. The dacmagic which seems to be very well reviewed, I realised after owning it for 2 years that it is actually harsh sounding, and "downgrading" to the STX improved this quite a lot.... I also had some other external dac's and whilst they were marginally better in some ways than the STX, overall the STX has the least issues. All of these things were pretty marginal anyway and could easily be mistaken for each other in a A/B test, except the Dacmagic which was obviously sibilant and harsh sounding. I am interested in trying some amps from the STX RCA out though when I have some more cash.
Edited by nicholars - 11/15/13 at 4:03am
post #14374 of 18063
Double post sorry.
post #14375 of 18063

It does make sense.

When a high or low register has to be played, the more power (good quality and well controled power) the easier and cleaner it can be represented. This is of course assuming every other condition is perfect.

 

My personal asumption is that when a diferent wave must be represented than the previous one, for the speaker or headphone to represnet it more acuratly it needs enought power to jump from the ending of the previous wave form to the begining of the new one in an instant. That would require enought power to do it naturally and fast. 

post #14376 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by catspaw View Post

It does make sense.



When a high or low register has to be played, the more power (good quality and well controled power) the easier and cleaner it can be represented. This is of course assuming every other condition is perfect.



 



My personal asumption is that when a diferent wave must be represented than the previous one, for the speaker or headphone to represnet it more acuratly it needs enought power to jump from the ending of the previous wave form to the begining of the new one in an instant. That would require enought power to do it naturally and fast. 

 



But the point is that most amps (that are not extremely cheap / bad) have specs which are much better than any headphones or speakers anyway, so theoretically it should not make any difference. I do agree that amps improve sound quality and change the tone as well though even though theoretically they should not.
post #14377 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

Yes that is not a bad thing because transparent and flat is not necessarily the best sounding (to me anyway).... I do think that DAC's are pretty over-rated though and I would not bother spending much money on one again unless I won the lottery or something. I think the DAC part of the STX is actually really good.... Sounds better (basically the same anyway) to me than most of the external DAC's I have used. The dacmagic which seems to be very well reviewed, I realised after owning it for 2 years that it is actually harsh sounding, and "downgrading" to the STX improved this quite a lot.... I also had some other external dac's and whilst they were marginally better in some ways than the STX, overall the STX has the least issues. All of these things were pretty marginal anyway and could easily be mistaken for each other in a A/B test, except the Dacmagic which was obviously sibilant and harsh sounding. I am interested in trying some amps from the STX RCA out though when I have some more cash.

I am running my MAD EAR +HD  and just using the dac from my STX.......sounds great.....awesome dac in the STX imo.

post #14378 of 18063

Im not sure i agree:

 

The way i see it is that if you 0.0003% Distortion on an amp, and a 0.001% Distortion on headphones, my bet is that not the total distortion is 0.001%, but rather closer to 0.0013%, perhaps even higher (logic dictates that its higher since every part of the 0.001% will be affected also, increasing the 0.001% by a factor im too dumb to calculate.

 

Also i guess that the Distortion measurement is not across all the audio spectrum, not at all volume levels and not at diferent speeds of music.

post #14379 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by catspaw View Post

Im not sure i agree:



 



The way i see it is that if you 0.0003% Distortion on an amp, and a 0.001% Distortion on headphones, my bet is that not the total distortion is 0.001%, but rather closer to 0.0013%, perhaps even higher (logic dictates that its higher since every part of the 0.001% will be affected also, increasing the 0.001% by a factor im too dumb to calculate.



 



Also i guess that the Distortion measurement is not across all the audio spectrum, not at all volume levels and not at diferent speeds of music.

 



But you are just randomly guessing things based on your own logic (no offense) biggrin.gif
post #14380 of 18063

Non-Taken :D.

I do this very often, im bound to eventually get it right :D.


Edited by catspaw - 11/15/13 at 5:12am
post #14381 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless1 View Post
 

Again, spoken like someone who reads and does not experience.  Spend less time on NwAvGuy's blog and more time experiencing before you formulate an opinion or give a wall of text advise.


Fearless1, I don't know if you have a problem with me, per say, or if you simply don't like my opinions. But I draw from a range of audio experiences when I seek to help others, and have made my decisions in part with the good advice of people on this forum and elsewhere. When I make my own recommendations, I do so while drawing on things which I am directly familiar (the O2, in this case, and several different computer audio setups I have used with different cans I have owned). And no, I don't recount my history of audio with my user-profile on this forum like others do. I don't see the use in that.

 

If I were a millionaire, maybe I could buy lots of different gear to gratify your need for opinions to be based on subjective impressions and real product experiences. If I were an industry schill, maybe I could wax poetic about how sometimes we should spend lots of money on audio equipment because doing so "is just better". I have spent thousands on audio over the course of my life, and have experienced some of the 'best' in different settings. You'd never convince me that I was missing out because I hadn't spent a huge wad on a DAC or 80-watt amp, when everyone knows you're into ear damage after the first milliwatt (but maybe you don't care about such things).

 

How about next time my opinion comes up short, you try filling in for my ignorance with some of your knowledge on whatever the subject is. Just remember that this is the HE-400 thread, not the "you shoulda bought LCDs like me thread". That would be a lot better than attacking me personally, or judging me as some kind of make-believe audio lover or objectivist. Jusdgements that, btw, would be hilarious and wrong, and increasingly are spoken like someone who is here to flame - not contribute.

post #14382 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by manbear View Post
 

 

I agree that the recording itself usually matters most, and that headphones matter more than amps, but different amps sound different. It seems like you agree, except you qualify by saying that they "shouldn't" sound different. I'm not sure what this means -- what one "should" hear is less important than what one does hear. Power is the main objective of amplification, but it's not everything. My Sony receiver has plenty of power, but just sounds veiled and thick compared to my other amps. My CMOY had plenty of power for my DT990 and Q701, yet my Little Dot MKIII still presented my favorite songs in a new way. 

Whether or not the difference you get from changing amps is worth the money is a separate issue. 

Also


"If I had got a Lyr, I'd be close to doubling the cost of my headphone setup and I am certain it would not double performance to my ears (even if it was nice)."

... How can you be truly certain if you haven't even heard it? I'm not saying that a Lyr would be twice as good, I'm just saying that you don't actually know this :rolleyes: Is this kind of reasoning really being "objective"
 


I like what you are saying. And without getting too caught up in "subjectivity vs objectivism" philosophy arguments, I would point out that "just hearing the lyr" would not be an exercise in objectivism. It would be an exercise in subjectivism - that is, I would be trying to decide 'how the amp sounds' without actually testing it. My ears don't count as 'objective' instruments to me. My personal experiences tell me that it would be a world-view altering moment if a $450 dollar lyr could manage to sound so much better than an O2 or computer that I would take a second job just to save up for one. I highly doubt it. Then again, I don't knock those that took the plunge either. So I hope people aren't taking it too personally that I can't justify $450 bucks on a tube headphone amp. I'd rather get some HD-600s.

 

I'll just pick on the sony receiver thing because used to have one, too. I like to read test reports because it turns out, lots of products cannot be compared on their specs alone, because there are few standards in reporting specifications. That puts consumers at the mercy of companies that a) want to maximize profit and b) would never put out information on a product that might render it inferior to another (i.e. lose sales as a result). My Sony had 'plenty of power too', but sounded like s*** compared to an equally priced Yamaha I got later. Different subjective impression? Yes. Different objective impression? I wouldn't know without someone that could test for me. But I can say that the Yamaha had lower rated power, and yet was louder, than the Sony. So sure, objectively, based on manufacturer provided specs alone, the Yamaha 'proved' that less power sounds better and is louder. Wait - what?

 

So I am not so stupid as to then claim that 1 Sony watt is not as good as 1 Yamaha watt. A watt is a watt, but I don't have all the gear to measure what must've been some obvious differences. And I sure as heck don't have 30x more money to find out if 1 high-end watt is 30x 'better' than 1 mid-range department store watt. It just isn't. That is why in economics there is a little law talking about "diminishing returns".


Edited by MrMateoHead - 11/15/13 at 8:40am
post #14383 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post
 

 

Yes I was only looking at getting an amp as it would be sort of step one of an upgrade... So if I then went to some better headphones than the HE400 I would not need to buy an amp AND headphones at the same time. But TBH you are probably right about most that you say with the HE400 anyway. I like the look of the Audio GD products but it does worry me a bit buying from some chinese vendor etc. I think they need to improve their distribution and marketing.

No I get it. If they updated their website it would probably go a long way toward bolstering some consumer-confidence.

post #14384 of 18063

Can you make a comparison hd600 for resolution and treble?

post #14385 of 18063
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post


I like what you are saying. And without getting too caught up in "subjectivity vs objectivism" philosophy arguments, I would point out that "just hearing the lyr" would not be an exercise in objectivism. It would be an exercise in subjectivism - that is, I would be trying to decide 'how the amp sounds' without testing it. My ears don't count as 'objective' instruments to me. My personal experiences so far tell me that it would be a world-view altering moment if a $450 dollar lyr could manage to sound so much better than an O2 or computer that I would take a second job just to save up for one.

I'll just pick on the sony receiver thing because used to have one, too. I like to read test reports because it turns out, lots of products cannot be compared on their specs alone, because there are few standards in reporting specifications. That puts consumers at the mercy of companies that a) want to maximize profit and b) would never put out information on a product that might render it inferior to another (i.e. lose sales as a result). My Sony had 'plenty of power too', but sounded like s*** compared to an equally priced Yamaha I got later. Different subjective impression? Yes. Different objective impression? I wouldn't know without someone that could test for me. But, again, I didn't have to spend 30x more to get a better result.

It sounds like you do think that different amps sound different, just that the difference isn't typically worth the money. You said you heard a difference between your two receivers, as well as between your two sound cards. Subjectively, yes, but still. How an amp sounds is subjective. We don't need objective measurements to say that there is a subjective difference between amps. We need them to say that there's an objective difference between amps. Nevertheless, I think you will agree that without hearing or measuring the Lyr, you cannot be subjectively or objectively certain about how it compares to other amps. You are merely speculating based on your "audio values."

I think you are exaggerating the cost issue. Personal finances aside, nobody has mentioned amps in the 30x more than the o2 price range... Everybody has to make their own decisions about what's worth the money to them, but that's not really the issue here. We're just talking about amps and how they compare. Remember that tastes are subjective, and that objective measurements can't accurately predict what a person would prefer. Some people are perfectly happy in this hobby by sticking with their subjective impressions, regardless of what measurements say they "should" hear. Again, I don't see the value of "should" when it runs counter to one's actual experiences. But that is IMO. You are free to place more value on the "shoulds," if that's what makes this hobby enjoyable to you. Enjoyability is subjective for everyone.
Edited by manbear - 11/15/13 at 9:26am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Headphones (full-size)
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › **Hifiman HE-400 Impressions and Discussion Thread**