The Offical Unoffical SNES Thread - Page 10

Hey guys,

I've just moved up from S-Video to RGB on my SNES. For those of you who don't know, RGB is the equivalent of component video, but limited to 480i. The SNES outputs in 240p and looks really good. It's a worthwhile investment. Super Metroid in 240p is great. I also picked up a Framemeister, a video upscaler made just for older games. The upscaling to 1080p (HDMI) looks excellent and it even has a built in scan line generator, so those games look better than ever!

Once you go RGB on a retro console that supports it, you don't go back.

By the way, there's a very important difference between RGB and component Y/Pr/Pb video, and that's the way the colors are encoded. This is why you need something like a CSY-2100 transcoder to convert the RGB signal to color difference Y/Pr/Pb. Too bad that modern HDTVs apparently really don't like 240p signals on their component inputs...

Those Micomsoft Frame Meister G1 upscalers are probably quite nice, but as funny as this is going to sound, I literally don't have any displays with HDMI or even DVI inputs. Only one display in this entire house has HDMI input, and that's my little brother's bedroom HDTV, where it's the LEAST likely to be used.

Plus, Micomsoft stuff is expensive. A typical XRGB-series upscaler costs at least US$300, if not way more after shipping and whatnot. We just lucked out on the SC-500N1 being basically the same capture card as the StarTech PEXHDCAP and who knows what else that may also be rebrands of the same product, meaning we don't have to pay the usual taxes and currency conversions and whatnot associated with importing stuff from Japan.

So do you need a retro console (vs an actual snes) to use RGB?

Hi,

Yes the encoding is different. RGB just looks better than component IMO. My TV supports 240p over component, but the picture drops out once and a while.

The Framemeister cost me $425USD shipped, but man it looks great. The scanline feature is great and it's the best upscaler you can get for old games. Much better than the XRGB-3.

Niteblooded, the SNES supports RGB. You need a SCART cable wired for RGB. Also the pinouts of the cables vary from region, so make sure your's is correct. The SNES via RGB looks great. Maybe I'll take pics and show it to you sometime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessPFG 

Once you go RGB on a retro console that supports it, you don't go back.

 

By the way, there's a very important difference between RGB and component Y/Pr/Pb video, and that's the way the colors are encoded. This is why you need something like a CSY-2100 transcoder to convert the RGB signal to color difference Y/Pr/Pb. Too bad that modern HDTVs apparently really don't like 240p signals on their component inputs...

 

Those Micomsoft Frame Meister G1 upscalers are probably quite nice, but as funny as this is going to sound, I literally don't have any displays with HDMI or even DVI inputs. Only one display in this entire house has HDMI input, and that's my little brother's bedroom HDTV, where it's the LEAST likely to be used.

 

Plus, Micomsoft stuff is expensive. A typical XRGB-series upscaler costs at least US$300, if not way more after shipping and whatnot. We just lucked out on the SC-500N1 being basically the same capture card as the StarTech PEXHDCAP and who knows what else that may also be rebrands of the same product, meaning we don't have to pay the usual taxes and currency conversions and whatnot associated with importing stuff from Japan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X 

Hi,

 

Yes the encoding is different. RGB just looks better than component IMO. My TV supports 240p over component, but the picture drops out once and a while.

 

The Framemeister cost me $425USD shipped, but man it looks great. The scanline feature is great and it's the best upscaler you can get for old games. Much better than the XRGB-3.

 

Niteblooded, the SNES supports RGB. You need a SCART cable wired for RGB. Also the pinouts of the cables vary from region, so make sure your's is correct. The SNES via RGB looks great. Maybe I'll take pics and show it to you sometime.

 

Nice, please do!  How does the picture quality differ from say a Wii console hooked up via RGB playing SNES games?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niteblooded 

Nice, please do!  How does the picture quality differ from say a Wii console hooked up via RGB playing SNES games?

I haven't done a direct comparison between the Wii and SNES, but at least the Wii does support a native 240p output mode for SNES Virtual Console releases instead of scandoubling to 480p, if that's what you want.

The main reason you'd want to use a real SNES is accuracy-more than any emulator on any platform will provide, because this is actual, authentic SNES hardware. And if you can use a proper RGB video signal, it'll look just about as clean, crisp, and vibrant as the emulators do, but without any visual artifacts that may be caused by improper emulation. (Of course, part of this is because PC monitors have interfaced via a form of analog RGB for years, so they've never really been crippled by the video interface, unlike consoles meant to connect to TVs.)

The Wii can output RGB, but only the PAL consoles, to my knowledge; NTSC ones support component video like any console 6th-gen onward, so there's much less of a need for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessPFG 

 

I haven't done a direct comparison between the Wii and SNES, but at least the Wii does support a native 240p output mode for SNES Virtual Console releases instead of scandoubling to 480p, if that's what you want.

 

The main reason you'd want to use a real SNES is accuracy-more than any emulator on any platform will provide, because this is actual, authentic SNES hardware. And if you can use a proper RGB video signal, it'll look just about as clean, crisp, and vibrant as the emulators do, but without any visual artifacts that may be caused by improper emulation. (Of course, part of this is because PC monitors have interfaced via a form of analog RGB for years, so they've never really been crippled by the video interface, unlike consoles meant to connect to TVs.)

 

The Wii can output RGB, but only the PAL consoles, to my knowledge; NTSC ones support component video like any console 6th-gen onward, so there's much less of a need for it.

Well I have both a real SNES (standard composite) and a Wii and I have played the same game on both (Ogre Battle).  It does look good on the Wii but the colors are so brightly saturated, I believe from the LED TV I'm using, that it is really hard to compare the graphics quality between the two.  The SNES is hooked up to an old Sony WEGA which has damn near perfect color reproduction and the Wii is hooked up to a Samsung 21" (I specify size because I LOVE my Samsung 46" ips panel) LED TV which is using a TN panel so the color reproduction is horrible.  I've tuned the Samsung so its about as good as its gonna get, but at the moment I'm not seeing any difference (TV color quirks aside) between the SNES and the Wii emulating SNES games.  That is why I was curious how a SNES using RGB is doing for graphics quality.  If it upscales the resolution wouldn't it be a bit more pixelated?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niteblooded 

Well I have both a real SNES (standard composite) and a Wii and I have played the same game on both (Ogre Battle).  It does look good on the Wii but the colors are so brightly saturated, I believe from the LED TV I'm using, that it is really hard to compare the graphics quality between the two.  The SNES is hooked up to an old Sony WEGA which has damn near perfect color reproduction and the Wii is hooked up to a Samsung 21" (I specify size because I LOVE my Samsung 46" ips panel) LED TV which is using a TN panel so the color reproduction is horrible.  I've tuned the Samsung so its about as good as its gonna get, but at the moment I'm not seeing any difference (TV color quirks aside) between the SNES and the Wii emulating SNES games.  That is why I was curious how a SNES using RGB is doing for graphics quality.  If it upscales the resolution wouldn't it be a bit more pixelated?

One of the reasons I don't like composite and even S-Video is that it significantly dulls the colors, along with introducing rainbow artifacts on white text and whatnot.

RGB and component allow for very vibrant colors by comparison.

However, there is a very good chance that the way your TV's set up, it's oversaturating the colors beyond what was intended. HDTVs are rarely calibrated to Rec. 709 spec, as more colored settings like oversaturated colors tend to jump out and impress customers on the sales floor more.

Note that going from 240p to 480p on the Wii shouldn't add more noticeable pixels, since it's literally just doubling the resolution. It's like going from 320x240 to 640x480, and then to 1280x960. It's a perfect pixel-doubling sort of scaling that wouldn't skew the existing pixels any. It may play nicer with modern displays, though, seeing as a lot of video processors can't tell the difference between 240p and 480i to begin with. (While the FCC forbade TV broadcasts from using the 240p format of having the odd and even interlaced lines overlap for an effectively progressive display with scanline gaps in between, retro consoles did this all the time, only rarely using actual 480i mode when the higher resolution was feasible. Still, some video processors attempt to de-interlace a 240p signal, with dreadful results.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessPFG 

 

One of the reasons I don't like composite and even S-Video is that it significantly dulls the colors, along with introducing rainbow artifacts on white text and whatnot.

 

RGB and component allow for very vibrant colors by comparison.

 

However, there is a very good chance that the way your TV's set up, it's oversaturating the colors beyond what was intended. HDTVs are rarely calibrated to Rec. 709 spec, as more colored settings like oversaturated colors tend to jump out and impress customers on the sales floor more.

 

Note that going from 240p to 480p on the Wii shouldn't add more noticeable pixels, since it's literally just doubling the resolution. It's like going from 320x240 to 640x480, and then to 1280x960. It's a perfect pixel-doubling sort of scaling that wouldn't skew the existing pixels any. It may play nicer with modern displays, though, seeing as a lot of video processors can't tell the difference between 240p and 480i to begin with. (While the FCC forbade TV broadcasts from using the 240p format of having the odd and even interlaced lines overlap for an effectively progressive display with scanline gaps in between, retro consoles did this all the time, only rarely using actual 480i mode when the higher resolution was feasible. Still, some video processors attempt to de-interlace a 240p signal, with dreadful results.)

Oh it is definitely oversaturating the colors beyond intended.   I haven't hooked up the Wii or SNES to the 46" Samsung (IPS panel) but its a very good reference TV where I have used an XBox 360 on it and the 21".   Oddly enough, with the 360 games the 21" has flat and dull color reproduction.   Somehow with the Wii, more so on the Virtual Console games, the colors go from a dull greyish washed out tone to an opposite oversaturated with colors tone.  I mean grass is a neon lime green so bright it would blind even the most hardcore '80s retro lover.

If I can take some decent quality pictures that I think show an accurate representation of what I see I will post some up - but I'm not the best at taking pictures and taking pictures of TV displays puzzle me.

You're right on the scaling and clearly understand that aspect more than I do.  I guess I was more focused on if the reference material (what the game is coded as) is only 240 resolution, wouldn't forcing it to 480 make it pixelated since you'd be doubling the size of the source material's resolution?  I dunno though. 

Time for a resurrection!

Here's my updated retro/modern set-up for everyone to look at!

Quote:

Originally Posted by uluaz 

hi everyone! new poster. what are everyones thoughts on higan? i saw that this recently replaced bsnes, which was my SNES emulator of choice. I havent used it yet, but just wanted to see what everyone thought ( I apologize if this has already been discussed.)

I love higan, bsnes/higan is still the only way I play SNES games when I'm not at home with my physical SNES.