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O2 vs TOTL - Page 6

post #76 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt head 777 View Post

I paid 144US from JDS labs and it was already built. Good thing about the 02 is nwavguy's disposition to how he went about building the amp. He doesn't even profit directly from the sales of the design, seems he is emotionally motivated in the design and seems to cover all the bases tech wise. See the tech article "more power".

 

What's the name of that overpriced basically "cmoy" design in a fancy wooden box? An example of commercial downsides.

I think it's grado's RA-1 or something like that

post #77 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by painter View Post

Where electrical engineers, sound engineers, objectivists, and audiophiles all disagree is the concept of Negative Feedback.  You can't measure an amp on its own and determine much at all. 

 

   Do people know that a design like the O2 creates several magnitudes more distortion than a Single Ended Triode amp ?    How can that be and it measure so well?   Well the O2 design cancels its internal distortion with very heavy Negative Feedback.  I built an O2 and yes it does a great job of cancelling its high distortion with NFB without resorting to such a high bandwidth that it is susceptible to oscillation,  it is a unique design, very very black background  and perfect if you think the job is done at the headphone jack.

 

 

What?  Hold on.

 

The thing that matters is the voltage across the load (that's what would be driving the headphones if headphones are used as the load), regardless of the toplogy of the circuit producing that signal.  The distortion levels if the circuit were changed and the feedback reduced, is irrelevant, since that's not the configuration of the actual amplifier.  It's not like somehow what's being measured is some idealized phantom signal, whereas headphones plugged in would be treated to some kind of "actual" signal that doesn't involve having feedback in the circuit.

post #78 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by painter View Post

Where electrical engineers, sound engineers, objectivists, and audiophiles all disagree is the concept of Negative Feedback.  You can't measure an amp on its own and determine much at all. 

 

   Do people know that a design like the O2 creates several magnitudes more distortion than a Single Ended Triode amp ?    How can that be and it measure so well?   Well the O2 design cancels its internal distortion with very heavy Negative Feedback.  I built an O2 and yes it does a great job of cancelling its high distortion with NFB without resorting to such a high bandwidth that it is susceptible to oscillation,  it is a unique design, very very black background  and perfect if you think the job is done at the headphone jack.

 

  But I don't think things end there.   Thorsten Loesch posted an excellent article that shows huge amounts of 2H distortion added (or subtracted) by the ear,  no one knows how it works.

 

  But it isn't too far fetched to imagine that a more accurate amplifier is one which is linear in amplification without NFB,   possible our perception is part of the feedback loop ?  Chew on that.

 

  If thats the case then the old roaring 20's direct heated triode designs just might be more "neutral" and maybe Lynn Olsen knows a bit more about acoustics than a recent EE grad with a dScope.

 

  But then again I could be wrong,  all I care is my high efficient phones sound better out of my SET amp than my O2.  But the O2 is a fine fine stable stable low noise design and kicks the snot out of the SET with inefficient phones  just don't think its the end all be all of neutrality.

 

  There is a mid-buck DIY SS alternative to the O2 brewing that is similiat to the old Sansui/Pioneer integrated topology for power hungry phones, can't wait to put it together.   These disagreements and non obsolutes are what make this hobby interesting and fun.


208ee7f5_tumblr_l19gnrsqrY1qbftkso1_5001.png

post #79 of 582

The whole point of the so called "agressive" reactions is because this thread was posted in the High end forum in the first place and then seeing all the negative responses there and the complete lack of experience and pointless responses from the person who openned the thread. Why say this what looks to be a decent amp should compete if you don't listen to a high end pair of cans and a high en DAC? If you dont believe the latters should have an impact then you don't belong in high end audio.

Other than that we can discuss the O2 qualities and such. But comparing it to the high end stuff is the error in the first place.

post #80 of 582

Once again, it seems that "high end" is all in the price...

post #81 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by telecaster View Post

The whole point of the so called "agressive" reactions is because this thread was posted in the High end forum in the first place and then seeing all the negative responses there and the complete lack of experience and pointless responses from the person who openned the thread. Why say this what looks to be a decent amp should compete if you don't listen to a high end pair of cans and a high en DAC? If you dont believe the latters should have an impact then you don't belong in high end audio.

Other than that we can discuss the O2 qualities and such. But comparing it to the high end stuff is the error in the first place.

I am not sure if your comments are valid, because you are showing pure bias towards the matter that the cheap amp and the esoteric (or more featured) amp have the same SQ with the only compromise being features and BQ. Besides people have used the O2 with high-end headphones and dac's, such as LCD-2's and Violectric's v800; still blind testing it against other amps without being able to discern differences.
post #82 of 582

Quote:

Originally Posted by telecaster View Post

The whole point of the so called "agressive" reactions is because this thread was posted in the High end forum in the first place and then seeing all the negative responses there and the complete lack of experience and pointless responses from the person who openned the thread. Why say this what looks to be a decent amp should compete if you don't listen to a high end pair of cans and a high en DAC? If you dont believe the latters should have an impact then you don't belong in high end audio.

Other than that we can discuss the O2 qualities and such. But comparing it to the high end stuff is the error in the first place.

 

 

 

TEACH ME MASTER!!!

What is high end?blink.gif

 


Edited by proton007 - 4/11/12 at 10:25pm
post #83 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

TEACH ME MASTER!!!

What is high end?


Obviously if you have to ask you are unworthy to know....

 

wink_face.gif

post #84 of 582

lol!

maybe if I meditate deep in the himalayas I will become worthy of that knowledge someday.wink.gif

post #85 of 582
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post

Currawong is very much right about how measurements are done. Multitone and IMD are much more representative of real music signals performance than THD at 1khz with a sine sweep. Here is where "class A", low or "no GNFB", "all discrete design", etc stops of being audio gimmicks and reveal their strenghts.

I would like to see those tests performed on a O2.



 

totally been done. I'm sure V would post them just for you if you asked.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 

I do, because I'm curious what TOTL users have to say about the O2.


That's why I started the thread.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Knight View Post


This.
Out of curiosity, I built the O2 a couple weeks again. It sounds great, but nothing spectacular.
The fact is only people who own the O2 care about comparing it about TOTL stuff, but ones who own TOTL don't really care wth the O2 is.


 

Disagree, most TOTL owners have tried the O2, why wouldn't they? What with all it's praise and cheapness... You'd be dumb to not give it a shot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Underneath the whole deal with post-purchase rationalization, buyer's remorse, and whatever kind of motivations you want to ascribe, I think there is a question of great significance buried underneath:

 

"What is the purpose of the high-end audio market?"  [though here it may be prudent to separate the headphones market with the rest of the gear]

 

maverickronin left some thoughts on this matter earlier.  There are of course other interpretations as well.


fantastic question, and yes.. It's the one I find myself asking.. Is there a point into delving into supposed "end game" rigs? or have I hit diminishing returns? Other people are certainly asking this of the O2.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by painter View Post

Where electrical engineers, sound engineers, objectivists, and audiophiles all disagree is the concept of Negative Feedback.  You can't measure an amp on its own and determine much at all. 

 

   Do people know that a design like the O2 creates several magnitudes more distortion than a Single Ended Triode amp ?    How can that be and it measure so well?   Well the O2 design cancels its internal distortion with very heavy Negative Feedback.  I built an O2 and yes it does a great job of cancelling its high distortion with NFB without resorting to such a high bandwidth that it is susceptible to oscillation,  it is a unique design, very very black background  and perfect if you think the job is done at the headphone jack.

 

  But I don't think things end there.   Thorsten Loesch posted an excellent article that shows huge amounts of 2H distortion added (or subtracted) by the ear,  no one knows how it works.

 

  But it isn't too far fetched to imagine that a more accurate amplifier is one which is linear in amplification without NFB,   possible our perception is part of the feedback loop ?  Chew on that.

 

  If thats the case then the old roaring 20's direct heated triode designs just might be more "neutral" and maybe Lynn Olsen knows a bit more about acoustics than a recent EE grad with a dScope.

 

  But then again I could be wrong,  all I care is my high efficient phones sound better out of my SET amp than my O2.  But the O2 is a fine fine stable stable low noise design and kicks the snot out of the SET with inefficient phones  just don't think its the end all be all of neutrality.

 

  There is a mid-buck DIY SS alternative to the O2 brewing that is similiat to the old Sansui/Pioneer integrated topology for power hungry phones, can't wait to put it together.   These disagreements and non obsolutes are what make this hobby interesting and fun.



 

Interesting idea.... I don't agree with it, but I follow your logic.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by telecaster View Post

The whole point of the so called "agressive" reactions is because this thread was posted in the High end forum in the first place and then seeing all the negative responses there and the complete lack of experience and pointless responses from the person who openned the thread. Why say this what looks to be a decent amp should compete if you don't listen to a high end pair of cans and a high en DAC? If you dont believe the latters should have an impact then you don't belong in high end audio.

Other than that we can discuss the O2 qualities and such. But comparing it to the high end stuff is the error in the first place.



 

It was posted in High-End to get opinions from people who owned High-End gear.. How better should I get their attention? Should I ask them independently via PM if they own an O2 and what they think of it?

In all honesty, I'm not sure why this was moved.. I think this should be relevant to high end gear. But, I'm fine with it being here too. It works under this category.

 

Also, how am I completely lacking experience? The pointless thing, is an opinion... But, I'm clearly not completely lacking experience. I haven't personally owned anything "high-end", does that alone make me ill-experienced and not worthy of asking a question to people who do own "high end"? Also, I'm pretty sure most people would say my magnums are end game material, upon hearing them.. I find it hard to believe I'll ever find anything better. Willing to give the HE 500s a shot, whenever I can though.

 

I never said they "should compete". Rather asked other people their opinions on how the two compare. People who ideally own high end cans and dacs. 

 

How the heck is comparing things error? I can compare anything I want.. KSC 75 vs Grado HF2... Guess what? the KSC 75 shows a LOT more value :) Both sound good. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

lol!

maybe if I meditate deep in the himalayas I will become worthy of that knowledge some day

Nah, you just have to spend LOTS of money. 


Edited by chrislangley4253 - 4/11/12 at 11:21pm
post #86 of 582

This thread is relevant. People wanna know how this cheap (in comparison) but respected amp compares, I like a bargain, the underdog. Would love to try a totl or other high end amp. I must admit I don't know much about the totl and how it drives headphones like my LCD-2 but it has inspired me to look into it...


Edited by Matt head 777 - 4/12/12 at 12:02am
post #87 of 582

And the overall consensus to your curiosity from people who own TOTL equipment and have heard the O2 as posted in this thread is that the O2 is not bad as a $150 amp but the TOTLs are better.

 

Of those people (reading from facts as posted), some have since sold their O2 while others have delegated their O2 as a backup amp. Unless I missed a post, no one in this post who owns both a TOTL and O2 has sold their TOTL instead. 

 

 

post #88 of 582

The reaction to this is more about politics as it is about sonics - if the O2 was designed by AMB or JDS Labs, I doubt that there would be anywhere near the same backlash. I abolutely understand why people who have spent thousands on a headphone amp dont want V's rhetoric thrown in their face everytime they log into Head-Fi, particularly in 'High End Audio'.

 

chrislangleynum, the only thing that matters is that you are happy with your amp - thats it. You know, and I know, that RSA and others arent going to publish detailed specs on their gear simply because V has called them to task and made various claims about the quality of their amps. Alternatively, you could organise an extensive DBT meet and ask owners of expensive amps to bring them in for blind testing  - dont tell them that the O2 is one of the amps behind the curtain and publish your results. Everything else is just subjective opinion, subject to the same bias and purchase justification that V rails against. 

 

I apologise for the fonts used in this post, but I think the mods have shown a lot of restraint in relation to multiple threads that devolve from anything resembling an objective appraisal of the O2 into slanging matches, I'm disappointed that you have gone down this road when common sense tells me that it could only end badly. I dont wade into Porsche forums to tell them that Subaru make a turbo model which will blow the doors off the Boxster .....

 

 

post #89 of 582

That's because the totl has more features and a better BQ, I have heard both power amps and headphone amps in the high end section and I have to tell you that I can't seem to convince myself that the pricier models sound better, even when comparing an O2 to a Dark Star I couldn't find differences even with sighted testing, I didn't have a weak source or badly recorded music, I know it because I was using a DVD-A1UDCI devon player and the music came from chesky. I didn't need the features of the dark star and built the O2 pretty solidly, so it was a no for me. It has happened the same to me when comparing Amarra vs. Decibel and McIntosh vs. Marantz (only in this occasion I did find the McIntosh better built and more reliable for power issues, besides I can sell it for the same price!)

post #90 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

 

 

I dont wade into Porsche forums to tell them that Subaru make a turbo model which will blow the doors off the Boxster .....

 

 



But if you did, most Porche owners would be willing to race the Subaru and to test the measurements of the former vs. the latter, rather than wax lyrical about the Boxter's "technicalities", "refined power", etc.

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