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O2 vs TOTL - Page 5

post #61 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post

Currawong is very much right about how measurements are done. Multitone and IMD are much more representative of real music signals performance than THD at 1khz with a sine sweep. Here is where "class A", low or "no GNFB", "all discrete design", etc stops of being audio gimmicks and reveal their strenghts.

I would like to see those tests performed on a O2.


IMD tests in a CCIF/SMPTE standard?  V has done those tests on the O2, and on other amps.

post #62 of 582

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peshmerga View Post


IMD tests in a CCIF/SMPTE standard?  V has done those tests on the O2, and on other amps.


Yeah, the one with 19+20khz signals.

 

post #63 of 582

This thread appears like this to me:

 

- O2 owners who cannot afford TOTL yet somehow feel the need to justify their cheaper purchase by putting down TOTL owners through "better" amp measurements.

- O2 owners who are actually fully content with the O2 performance (having heard TOTLs) and cannot understand why people would spend anymore money on an amp.

- TOTL owners with an elitist attitude that anything that's not TOTL sounds inferior.

- TOTL owners who are actually fully content with their TOTL performance (having heard the O2) and willing to spend the extra money on a "better" amp.

- People making comments without having heard the O2, TOTLs and or both.

- Trolls...

 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 

post #64 of 582

I'm still excited to order parts for a O2 soon, but if anyone feels like throwing a free TOTL and O2 to test to me, I'll be more than obliged biggrin.gif

post #65 of 582


Buyer's remorse and post purchase rationalization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubar 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 



 

post #66 of 582

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 


Isn't that the whole entire point of Head-Fi?

 

... oh wait.

post #67 of 582

One does not need to own the O2 or a TOTL amp to discern a fundamental lack of honesty and wanton disregard of cognitive biases in comments that purport to have meaning across audience, time and place.  Saying that this does not matter is precisely part and parcel of the problem.

post #68 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

This thread appears like this to me:

 

- O2 owners who cannot afford TOTL yet somehow feel the need to justify their cheaper purchase by putting down TOTL owners through "better" amp measurements.

- O2 owners who are actually fully content with the O2 performance (having heard TOTLs) and cannot understand why people would spend anymore money on an amp.

- TOTL owners with an elitist attitude that anything that's not TOTL sounds inferior.

- TOTL owners who are actually fully content with their TOTL performance (having heard the O2) and willing to spend the extra money on a "better" amp.

- People making comments without having heard the O2, TOTLs and or both.

- Trolls...

 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 


This.

Out of curiosity, I built the O2 a couple weeks again. It sounds great, but nothing spectacular.
The fact is only people who own the O2 care about comparing it about TOTL stuff, but ones who own TOTL don't really care wth the O2 is.
post #69 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peshmerga View Post


IMD tests in a CCIF/SMPTE standard?  V has done those tests on the O2, and on other amps.


Yeah, the one with 19+20khz signals.

 

CCIF is the 19 kHz + 20 kHz test; SMPTE is the 60 Hz + 7 kHz test.  Rumor has it that there are such tests published for the O2, at an output level of 400 mV, into 15 and 150 ohms respectively, for both those IMD tests.  You might have to look into the deep, dark recesses of the Internet to find those, from some arcane posting in the month of July.  Good luck navigating past the walls of text and apparently-related pictures of wine bottles and cars first.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 

 

Underneath the whole deal with post-purchase rationalization, buyer's remorse, and whatever kind of motivations you want to ascribe, I think there is a question of great significance buried underneath:

 

"What is the purpose of the high-end audio market?"  [though here it may be prudent to separate the headphones market with the rest of the gear]

 

maverickronin left some thoughts on this matter earlier.  There are of course other interpretations as well.

post #70 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

 

Good luck navigating past the walls of text and apparently-related pictures of wine bottles and cars first.



Haha. Yea, that site could use like a table of contents or something with links to the relevant section.  Thank God for "Ctrl-F" in the Chrome browser, searched for IMD, 3rd result.

post #71 of 582


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

This thread appears like this to me:

 

- O2 owners who cannot afford TOTL yet somehow feel the need to justify their cheaper purchase by putting down TOTL owners through "better" amp measurements.

- O2 owners who are actually fully content with the O2 performance (having heard TOTLs) and cannot understand why people would spend anymore money on an amp.

- TOTL owners with an elitist attitude that anything that's not TOTL sounds inferior.

- TOTL owners who are actually fully content with their TOTL performance (having heard the O2) and willing to spend the extra money on a "better" amp.

- People making comments without having heard the O2, TOTLs and or both.

- Trolls...

 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 


I m not disagreeing or agreeing with you I just want to play the devil's advocate here and point out that its pointless to point out something is pointless if it TRULY is indeed pointless if you follow me. 

 

I think it is a very important debate because if this truly is a world class amp and it only costs $150 or so to your front door that is something special.  I know this is a highly if not hopelessly subjective debate, but the average of the collective opinion carries a lot of weight and to a very real degree helps eliminate some, not all, but some of the subjectivity and gets us closer to the objective truth if there is one to be had any way.   

 

I say this because the battle waged on this thread is not for the hearts and souls of the true believers, they like you say have there minds made up and all the text in the world won't change that, but rather the people like myself who have yet to make up there minds one way or the other .  Who have little money to spend and don't want to spend it if they don't have too in the pursuit of audio Nirvana.

 

post #72 of 582


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super MANSKITO View Post

I think it is a very important debate because if this truly is a world class amp and it only costs $150 or so to your front door that is something special.  I know this is a highly if not hopelessly subjective debate, but the average of the collective opinion carries a lot of weight and to a very real degree helps eliminate some, not all, but some of the subjectivity and gets us closer to the objective truth if there is one to be had any way.   

 

I say this because the battle waged on this thread is not for the hearts and souls of the true believers, they like you say have there minds made up and all the text in the world won't change that, but rather the people like myself who have yet to make up there minds one way or the other .  Who have little money to spend and don't want to spend it if they don't have too in the pursuit of audio Nirvana.

 



Exactly.

There's a lot of FUD and Marketing that goes around in any field where buyers cannot understand how the product actually works. Plus, every buyer has a different set of expectations when they go out to make a purchase.

As a personal opinion, we normally accept things in two ways, either its logic (hence science) or faith.

The beauty of logic is in its ability to stand against questioning.

The beauty of faith/magic is in its mystery, and hence its ability to amaze. If the trick is revealed, that beauty is gone.

Something like the left and right brain.

Both faith and logic are required to some degree (one more than the other depending on your profession and personality/nature), but it is important to be able to distinguish which is which. More so if you are looking for value.

 

post #73 of 582

Where electrical engineers, sound engineers, objectivists, and audiophiles all disagree is the concept of Negative Feedback.  You can't measure an amp on its own and determine much at all. 

 

   Do people know that a design like the O2 creates several magnitudes more distortion than a Single Ended Triode amp ?    How can that be and it measure so well?   Well the O2 design cancels its internal distortion with very heavy Negative Feedback.  I built an O2 and yes it does a great job of cancelling its high distortion with NFB without resorting to such a high bandwidth that it is susceptible to oscillation,  it is a unique design, very very black background  and perfect if you think the job is done at the headphone jack.

 

  But I don't think things end there.   Thorsten Loesch posted an excellent article that shows huge amounts of 2H distortion added (or subtracted) by the ear,  no one knows how it works.

 

  But it isn't too far fetched to imagine that a more accurate amplifier is one which is linear in amplification without NFB,   possible our perception is part of the feedback loop ?  Chew on that.

 

  If thats the case then the old roaring 20's direct heated triode designs just might be more "neutral" and maybe Lynn Olsen knows a bit more about acoustics than a recent EE grad with a dScope.

 

  But then again I could be wrong,  all I care is my high efficient phones sound better out of my SET amp than my O2.  But the O2 is a fine fine stable stable low noise design and kicks the snot out of the SET with inefficient phones  just don't think its the end all be all of neutrality.

 

  There is a mid-buck DIY SS alternative to the O2 brewing that is similiat to the old Sansui/Pioneer integrated topology for power hungry phones, can't wait to put it together.   These disagreements and non obsolutes are what make this hobby interesting and fun.

post #74 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubar View Post

This thread appears like this to me:

 

- O2 owners who cannot afford TOTL yet somehow feel the need to justify their cheaper purchase by putting down TOTL owners through "better" amp measurements.

- O2 owners who are actually fully content with the O2 performance (having heard TOTLs) and cannot understand why people would spend anymore money on an amp.

- TOTL owners with an elitist attitude that anything that's not TOTL sounds inferior.

- TOTL owners who are actually fully content with their TOTL performance (having heard the O2) and willing to spend the extra money on a "better" amp.

- People making comments without having heard the O2, TOTLs and or both.

- Trolls...

 

Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 


this websites entire existence is based on people attempting to rationalize and justify purchases. Well, it accounts for say 70% of it's existence. 

 

post #75 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

I think a lot of posters seem to react rather aggressively.

I feel there are two categories of amp owners, those who are new to the audiophile business and found O2 as a cheap, well performing option. Of course, those who already own expensive equipment will look at the O2 with suspicion. It is natural and there's nothing wrong with that.

IMO ToTL not only means sound, it also means features. Amps like benchmark and Violectric have other options in sound and input/output, are much better built, and will last decades. All that commands high price, and I hope no one will argue on this.

Secondly, its a business, and someone's charging you for all the hard work they did in terms of design, manufacturing and after sales support. There's no proper definition of how much of a premium all these things add, so I'll leave it at that. Anyone selling you a product you cannot design/manufacture has the right to charge you whatever they want. And you have the right to refuse to buy it, simple.

DIY projects are cumbersome and sometimes impossible when it comes to supporting and troubleshooting. 

And for those who say its cheap, its not really that cheap... the whole package cost me somewhere around 200 SGD (150$). I had to buy soldering equipment, multimeter, power supply, and some extra components in case I damaged them. 

 

Ultimately, I think the problem is not the cost, but the superlative qualities some people ascribe to devices both cheap/expensive. If they are representatives of some brand, then its completely justifiable, but just as an owner it might not be very convincing. It is very difficult to find a correlation between the cost and performance, firstly because there's a whole lot of gray, and nothing's black or white, and secondly, because the definition of performance is rather loose.

I agree, even V said this (the things about ToTL's)

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