Car audio-Fi - Page 3

I'm still pretty happy with the sound and I'm hoping the speakers will get better with age but I was listening to The Beach Boys - God Only Knows and the snares at the end were missing sparkle/snap and getting lost somewhat in the mix. That doesn't happen on my head phones or my home system.

Still to do some tinkering though.

Turns out because the mids are in doors and the trebles are on dash, trebles were burying slightly. lowered the trebles by -2 and added +1 mids. was far too bright on alot of songs.

I'm hoping the mids will warm up on doors though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

I'm still pretty happy with the sound and I'm hoping the speakers will get better with age but I was listening to The Beach Boys - God Only Knows and the snares at the end were missing sparkle/snap and getting lost somewhat in the mix. That doesn't happen on my head phones or my home system.

Still to do some tinkering though.

 

Turns out because the mids are in doors and the trebles are on dash, trebles were burying slightly. lowered the trebles by -2 and added +1 mids. was far too bright on alot of songs.

I'm hoping the mids will warm up on doors though.

Try to tweak the tweeters' mounting point and aiming. Remember the tweets at home are almost always in sync with the midwoofer(s), given they're close to each other on the cabinet (unless you're sitting too close); even the tweets that can be tweaked for this at home (like Wharfe Pacifics with a swivel mount for the tweets, or Duevel Planets that you can position and have the tweets farther or close to you depending on your room acoustics) aren't going to be that different. With the limited space in a car, you encounter a bunch of problems :

1) The tweets are usually far from the midwoofers, which means you can get time alignment issues. This is why I always recommend a processor, regrdless of whether it's built into your receiver or not, the important feature being a 3-way crossover and 6-way time alignment. The tweeters being closer to you when on the dash means that you hear it first, so you have to introduce a time-delay on them.

2) Not even a processor can make up for totally imporper mounting - the aiming of the tweeter has to strike a balance between the following:
a. minimize reflections off the windshield, so you need to angle it inward - this is when people find their systems sibilant and possibly with an uneven stage shape (ie the vocals are on the driver's side and forward, the rest on the passenger side might seem recessed to the driver), and EQ or gain doesn't help

b. minimize glare and time alignment issue for the closer tweeter, so you have to angle it outward - again, you will naturally hear something physically closer to you, the difference is that this time too much inward angle will let you hear the tweeter directly instead of more of the same sound just bouncing off the windshield

c. raise the stage height, so you have to angle it upwards - the problem with some people who try to deal with the first two issues by mounting the tweets on the kickpanel? The soundstage height will be lower than the driver's face. It's like being in the far back of the stadium looking down at the concert. Not true universally, but a lot of systems do suffer from this (that's why you need to experiment in your own car with your own speakers)

Again, between a processor and proper mounting, the latter would account for a lot more since no time alignment can process reflections to disappear, but you might in the end wonder why all that sweat didn't get far enough, so might as well do both. I mean, if you spend several Sunday afternoons prototyping then fabricating tweeter mounts, or pay someone else to do this, what's another $350 or so for a Pioneer DEH-80PRS? (Or if you already have an Alpine, get the $150 PXA-H100 add-on processor)

If the main issue is a late model car's GPS, there are processors out there that can take an analog speaker-level input. Sure, some may argue, "garbage (from stock receiver in), garbage (processed and regurgitated) out," but regardless of what you think of the stock unit's frequency response, such processors will be able to deal with the real problem in a car, which is time alignment. Unless you have enough cash to just mount a sound system on a McLaren F1, or buy an old Alpine F1 Status show car (where they unintentionally rip off the McLaren F1 by modifying the car for center-drive seating and adding their F1 Status sound flagship system).

Thanks for the very long reponse! =)

I have a Pioneer head unit but it has no time alignment. It also only has bass +/- 6, mids +/- 6 and, treble +/- 6.

Any change does too much. I.e put the mids to 1 and it sounds fake.

Today I was listening to Over The Rainbow by Eva Cassidy and... Well with the treble set as I had it yesterday, it lost sparkle but put it to 0 or higher and it sounds too bright.

I may have to mess with positioning but hes superglued the units on. They do infact touch the front glass etc for the left which is resting on the tax disc.

The sound is tonnes better than it was, and thr Sony Explods but its still... Mm... Not as good as my Logitech z-5500 even.

I will look yp ptocessing, thanks

Has anyone heard the new B&O systems they're putting into BMW's yet? Pretty expensive, but depends on what the sound is like I suppose.

Thinking of getting a BMW 640D in a few months time...
 

I was told by the guys that fitted my components, that getting a good sound in a new model BMW is pretty hard to do.

My sub crossover, I have set to 50hz, so anything above is handled by the mid speakers. I'm wondering however if I should set this inbetween the 50-100hz mark, or leave it as is.

Don't want muddy bass.

My Mid door speakers can go down to 36hz, but of course the sub is a lot more powerful so can hit harder.

Its a shame using my Pioneer, I can't cut the bass from the mids completely, and use the sub purely for 100hz and below to give the mids more headroom.

I may have to try setting the head unit to a much lower - figure, and try and somehow turn the gain farther on the amp to counteract the fact the bass is knocked back.

Well I fitted a two way component up front + a pair of 6 x 9's in the rear + a 10" sub + 2 amps in my Z4 and sound is pretty good, would like not to have to get it all done again just after I buy a new car, the Z4 was practically dismantled to fit everything - looking at the BMW 640D at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

Thanks for the very long reponse! =)

I have a Pioneer head unit but it has no time alignment. It also only has bass +/- 6, mids +/- 6 and, treble +/- 6.

Any change does too much. I.e put the mids to 1 and it sounds fake.

Today I was listening to Over The Rainbow by Eva Cassidy and... Well with the treble set as I had it yesterday, it lost sparkle but put it to 0 or higher and it sounds too bright.

 

 

Since that's basically just bass and treble control with a midrange band, the problem may be that it has a too-wide effect from the center frequency. By that I mean if you check a normal graphic eq for example on any decent media player, or better car audio receivers, you can choose the frequency to boost or cut, but also how far out above and below that gets affected by how much. Like if you set it to 150hz and you cut, at a narrow setting a -2db but there will get up to, say, -0.5db at one octave lower; at a wider setting that would be something like -1db.

 

Check if the width of the EQ-affected freq can be adjusted, and make it narrower. Past that it may also be exacerbating other problems, particularly when a flat treble setting is too bright. Like I've done with my car's system, before I kept fiddling with the EQ; after the fiberglas tweeter pods and time alignement, I couldn't tweak the EQ without making it sound artificial, while not feeling like I needed to begin with.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

The sound is tonnes better than it was, and thr Sony Explods but its still... Mm... Not as good as my Logitech z-5500 even.

 

Well, the Logitech doesn't have to deal with the reality of speaker placement in a relatively cramped cabin where you're sitting off-center. I've heard systems with the more expensive DLS systems sound worse than cheap raw drivers in a car with a proper processor and installation. Like this one Accord in a local SQ competition a few years back. Since the "budget" category was restricted to component and installment price as well as total system wattage, the guy took the best //////Alpine receiver short of the flagship (which was already a generation old that time) just for the processor, used its internal 60w x 4 V-Drive high current amp, and cheap raw drivers that cost $30 for the set. Plus a cheap, Taiwan-made "Alpine MRV" amp and used it on a $40 sub from the same manufacturer as the other drivers. i think he even used aluminum-bitumen roof insulation instead of Dynamat to make the catergory.

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

I may have to mess with positioning but hes superglued the units on. They do infact touch the front glass etc for the left which is resting on the tax disc.

Most likely the cause of the reflections you're getting off the treble. Why not ask around DIYMA if there's any shop near you that competes in IASCA or EMMA? They'd know what you really want. I once walked into a shop with my friend, who was looking to upgrade to a newer GPS receiver on his Celica, and when I asked if they did Fiberglass work they thought I wanted "Pimp My Ride." Here in Metro Manila we get loads of those guys; they're all physically close compared to, say, car audio shops in California, but traffic here stretches place and time you could go around a whole day and not visit all of them.

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

I will look yp ptocessing, thanks

Just one more note on fully-active set-ups - if you use a 6-way time alignment, you need a true 3-way crossover (as I mentioned) but the consequence of this is that if you put the processor's active crossover BEFORE the amplifier, you can't split the amplified signal with passive crossovers (the plastic boxes that come with speaker sets), which means you'd need more channels of amplification. I have five in my car before - a Digital Designs C4 4-channel (70w x 2 on the tweets, + 140w x 2 for the midwoofers) and an old MTX monoblock (200w x 1) for the sub. The car I cited above had four from the receiver's high-current amp, then the monoblock for the sub.

Look around though since you can get a decent 5ch, fullrange Class D amps for not a lot of money these days. Some even use a hybrid topology with dual power supplies - Class A/B for the fullrange channels,* Class D for the sub channel. I think JLAudio even had one with Class A on the tweets and maybe the midrange if you use a 2.5-way set-up on the front, A/B on the midwoofer, and Class on the sub. However if your amp has any sections that aren't Class D chances are they might be relatively larger given the output - DLS Ultimate amps and JL Slash amps might be too long for some people. However, I have seen a lot of practically usable luggage compartments with these long amps, the key is to mount it out of the way.

*It's usually claimed to be "cleaner," but really some fullrange Class D's just sound too clean people think they sound "lean." Class A/Bs give that midrange bloom, even in small quantities, that make them more pleasing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac 

 i think he even used aluminum-bitumen roof insulation instead of Dynamat to make the catergory.

 

 

That stuff works great though. I've used a combination of alu-bitumen and lead-bitumen for both my doors (alu for the outer side within the body work, lead for the inside), dashboard and hood. It's easy to apply and much cheaper than Dynamat. Especially when you need large quantities, like I did. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Negakinu 

 

That stuff works great though. I've used a combination of alu-bitumen and lead-bitumen for both my doors (alu for the outer side within the body work, lead for the inside), dashboard and hood. It's easy to apply and much cheaper than Dynamat. Especially when you need large quantities, like I did. 

The problem's the gunk, although people found out dry ice works best for removing the stuff.

Just started gearing up for my next build.  Taking advantage of the ridiculously low prices on Boston gear since they exited car audio.

This is what I got so far.  Next step is to score a couple sets of Boston Pro60SEs.

1. Boston Acoustics G110PD: 1 @ $139.99  MSRP  $329.95 ea.
2. Boston Acoustics GT-2125: 3 @ $109.99  MSRP  $299.95 ea.

Managed to get my car audio system to sound more balanced. The sub I thought would sound best set to 50hz as the crossover. Turns out, setting it to 100hz (the max) was the best option. Sounds so much more alive now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

Managed to get my car audio system to sound more balanced. The sub I thought would sound best set to 50hz as the crossover. Turns out, setting it to 100hz (the max) was the best option. Sounds so much more alive now.

How localized is the bass with that setting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac 

 

How localized is the bass with that setting?

It sounds like its coming from the tweeters, haha, but because my car is so small, the bass also fills the entire space around the car.

The sound with the tweeters, is lifted compared to when I tried the co-axial speakers in the doors, so the sound is quite balanced, but the sound seems to come from the tweeters, and not from the door speakers (maybe inbetween the two), though I know the sound must be coming from both, but because of the fitting and locations, its creating a psudo sound field, that just sounds right now.

I feel the door speakers alone doing the mid bass wasn't particularly very strong. The sub just adds the thump I needed at those frequencies.

The bass then shakes the seat at times, which adds to the effect too.

Its certainly the best setting for sure. I had a play with the Phase too, but I found setting it to 180 degrees knocked away some of the mids, but added to the bass.

However, having it on 0 degrees has a stronger presence all round.

EDIT:

The only thing I would want now is a possible Dolby Pro Logic II type system with some back speakers somewhere in the car, which would play some extra surround details in a song. I use it alot with my Logitech Z-5500's. I could get that with a possible sound processor?

I wouldn't want the backs for example copying the front.

Dolby Pro Logic II seems to work very well in adding extra depth without feeling like its doing that.

As at the minute, the bass fills, but the sound obviously feels like its coming from the front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

It sounds like its coming from the tweeters, haha, but because my car is so small, the bass also fills the entire space around the car.

 

---

 

I feel the door speakers alone doing the mid bass wasn't particularly very strong. The sub just adds the thump I needed at those frequencies.

 

The bass then shakes the seat at times, which adds to the effect too.

 

As at the minute, the bass fills, but the sound obviously feels like its coming from the front.

 

If the bass sounds like its coming from the tweeters that's not too bad; in fact that's generally better since that basically means you have the bass up front. Thing is in all HiFi the goal ultimately is to recreate even in miniature scale the position of the instruments, which is why we have stereophonic recording, except in cars we don't have purpose-built MDF enclosures for the front speakers so a sub is usually necessary, at which point hte next problem is its location. If it pulls the bass to the rear, usually because it's cut too high or otherwise just can't integrate with the front, it's like the bassist and maybe the bass drum are in the crowd instead of on the stage.

When I had a sub I cut it low because when the bass hits the seat on hard bass drum kicks, it really pulls the bass towards the rear. Cutting it at around  50hz, 24db/octave didn't have the chest-thumping effect of standing in the front row, but at least I hear the bass coming from the dashboard. I personally prefer that the bass origin is vague as it fills the cabin rather than too localized from the rear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 

The sound with the tweeters, is lifted compared to when I tried the co-axial speakers in the doors, so the sound is quite balanced, but the sound seems to come from the tweeters, and not from the door speakers (maybe inbetween the two), though I know the sound must be coming from both, but because of the fitting and locations, its creating a psudo sound field, that just sounds right now.

 

Since human hearing takes a lot of positional cues from more directional frequencies, which are the treble and midrange, putting a separate tweeter higher has a huge effect vs tweeters on coaxials in the doors aiming straight ahead out from the mount (as opposed to custom installs where they're aimed up and mounted separately from the midwoofer). Bass is generally omnidirectional in theory but in practice the size and ergo the placement of the transducer that produces the bass usually creates too many opportunities for bass to be localized.

The other notes being localized to the tweeter is generally because of reflections, which is more prevalent when mounting high up thanks to the windshield. Mounting them low and aimed properly means the carpet usually absorbs and prevents a lot of this, however the trade off is aiming and even individualized gain settings can't completely prevent localization. It's usually more about the tweeters' dispersion pattern and the shape of the cabin features that affects this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage 
EDIT:

 

The only thing I would want now is a possible Dolby Pro Logic II type system with some back speakers somewhere in the car, which would play some extra surround details in a song. I use it alot with my Logitech Z-5500's. I could get that with a possible sound processor?

I wouldn't want the backs for example copying the front.

Dolby Pro Logic II seems to work very well in adding extra depth without feeling like its doing that.

 

As at the minute, the bass fills, but the sound obviously feels like its coming from the front.

That depends on the recording and the hardware. On the latter, where you need an HT receiver/processor for Dolby, it's the same in a car. The difference however is that cars by default even if they run 2.0 audio they come with extra speakers so passengers in the back can hear the music clearly without cranking up the front and deafening the people there. However, for pure stereo listeners, they just ask one question : am I the only one here who really cares about soundstage? The answer to which is usually a "yes," given the rest of the family and/or drunk friends hitching a ride aren't as interested in those details, so the rears aren't used. You do this with either the most basic feature, which is a Fader control, so the receiver will put all sound on the front speakers; or for those with upgraded systems, just don't hook them up to the new amp or the receiver's speaker taps. Others who have rear deck speakers mounted the subs there - they're essentially free-air but at least the cones are already in the cabin, you just need to seal it off a bit so the sound coming out of the rear of the cone don't leak through the rear seats and cause cancellation (I've began to hate separate compartments for this, which is why I want a 5dr nowadays, but the prospect of salmon or other seafood that don't come in commercial brand sealed packs partially melting in the same space as the cabin is giving me second thoughts).

If you really want to use Dolby Pro Logic, check out DVD receivers. If they have a 5.1 analog output chances are they have surround processing, and usually ProLogic. The older generation Alpine F1 Status processor can do both 5.1 surround or active 3-way 2.0, depending on which one you need.