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post #16 of 67

How do you guys recommend getting into car audio? Easy starter builds or something like that? 

post #17 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by takubi View Post

How do you guys recommend getting into car audio? Easy starter builds or something like that? 

 

Read the forums! Lots of information online. Best way to start is to start proper. Your install is more important than your components. Google "your car" + "car audio" or "audio install" and see what other people have done to it. Dampen your doors! Don't be afraid to take things apart. ;) Buy components from real car audio hifi manufacturers. Buy passive components instead of active. Buy thick budget cables. Draw a cable plan before you start to rip open your car upholstery. Forget about your social life for a month and lock yourself in your garage. ;)

post #18 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negakinu View Post

 

Read the forums! Lots of information online. Best way to start is to start proper. Your install is more important than your components. Google "your car" + "car audio" or "audio install" and see what other people have done to it. Dampen your doors! Don't be afraid to take things apart. ;) Buy components from real car audio hifi manufacturers. Buy passive components instead of active. Buy thick budget cables. Draw a cable plan before you start to rip open your car upholstery. Forget about your social life for a month and lock yourself in your garage. ;)

Thank you! What are some good online resources?

post #19 of 67

Has anyone used any Vibe Space speakers?

 

http://www.vibeaudio.co.uk/car/space-speakers/

 

Do they sound any good? I remember seeing some good review a long time ago, but can't find much more.

 

I'm looking for an audiophile style experience, with a good bass response, but nothing earth shattering. I want details, not to lose it all.

 

I drive a Nissan Micra 1.0, and at the minute, it has a tape deck I use a tape adapter to connect my phone to, and I'm guessing paper speakers (they don't sound terrible, but they dstort as the bass gets loud, but the bass on them is adequate)


Edited by musical-kage - 1/25/13 at 6:21am
post #20 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by takubi View Post

How do you guys recommend getting into car audio? Easy starter builds or something like that? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by takubi View Post

Thank you! What are some good online resources?

 

Do it with the least amount of expenditure mistakes the first time around. Read around www.diymobileaudio.com, try to get speakers that sound close to what speakers or headphones you like but going in already prepare to spend on a good receiver and/or processor and modifications to the car body/chassis/interior, not just replacing the speakers. Why? You know how Focal-JMLab speakrs sound like at home or a HiFi store? They don't sound like that in most cars, not without setting up the system properly to compensate for vehicle acoustics.

 

First step in that is sound deadening, unless you already have a nice, solid car like a BMW to start with, otherwise prepare the Dynamat.

 

Second, proper driver mounting - chief among these is to angle the tweeters (and midrange if it's a 3-way front speaker system) in a secure, mounted, and preferably aesthetically acceptable* way, the angle being important to place the vocals in the center without the nearer side pulling the image. Second, some door-mounts nowadays have the speakers on a plastic inner panel behind the outer plastic interior panel. At a minimum you have to reinforce that** with some Dynamat, just make sure you can fit the panels back on; some would apply a layer of resin and maybe also fiberglass to reinforce the plastic; or skip all of that and just mount the midwoofer in a custom fiberglass enclosure on the kickpanel. If you're gonna go as far as that, you can angle the driver properly.

 

Third is where the processor (whether stand-alone or built into your receiver) comes in - invest on one with active crossovers that can allow you to cut the frequencies between the tweeter and midwoofer and also on the right number of amp channels that can give you clean power. Ignore what everyone says about how that helps current and maybe channel separation - the real deal here is so you can use a full active set-up where along with that crossover along with an equally capable time alignment processing capability so you can delay not just per channel, but each driver, so you hear each one at the same time. Even the sub can be cut low enough and the front delayed to psychoacoustically place the bass in front of you. Do this last, given you might not want to lose the stock GPS system in your car (you can always mount it in a spare map pocket on the dash, if it's standard 1-DIN), plus this is more for fine-tuning when driver mounting and angles you can or are willing to do in the car cannot fully compensate for the vehicle's interior. Take note too that having the most powerful processor and improper driver mounting won't do as much for your car either.

 

Be patient and save up for the best you can afford without starving yourself, given mistakes in car audio can't be rectified by just boxing the gear, posting it for sale and sucking up the loss - you might have already have had work done on your car and you can't sell just those mods. Or better yet, work on an older car yourself for practice.

 

 

*doesn't have to be Pimp My Ride, just needs to be neat

**you don't mount speakers on a thin plastic sheet at home, right/? Headphones drivers, sure, but not heavy speakers - especially when you consider it's alright for an HD600 mount to be thin given how small that plastic frame and driver are, an that you have to wear that on your head so weight is an issue, but it sits on your head to brace it and the distance to your ears doesn't lose much bass energy

post #21 of 67

Wow, thank you so much!

post #22 of 67

I have 2ish questions as a noob getting into car audio (I mostly just want to upgrade my stock system):

 

1)  Sound deadening/dynamat stuff: How effective is it?  How low a frequency can it go?  I am hoping to get some installed behind the dashboard (the... firewall?) to help with engine noise, but the engine noise I want to mitigate is a low frequency rumble (like, 60 Hz and below).  I'm not asking for a miracle, but I would like the sound deadening stuff to help some with that. Besides that, I hope to improve road noise by installing the stuff in the floors and doors.  Where else should I be looking at?

 

2)  Must I get a subwoofer?  From what I read, it seems that subwoofers are far more common in car audio than they are in home audio.  Is this because car speakers are smaller and roll off at higher frequencies than home speakers?  Or is it because car audio enthusiasts tend to like bass a lot?  I don't really listen to bass-heavy music (mainly rock, classical, some jazz).  Am I missing out if I don't get a subwoofer?

post #23 of 67

I went today to get my car all audio'd up.

I have a Micra 1.0 Tempest 2002, so just wanted to improve the sound. I'm probably going to have it a while.

 

I wish he deadened the vibrations a bit more when the guy fit them, but I got a Pioneer head unit which plays CD/MP3/USB/AUX, Sony Xplod XS-F1727SE speakers (not so sure about these), and a In Phase Compact Subwoofer USW-10 which has gotten rave reviews.

 

My mounting depth for my speakers could have only have been 54mm or less, and he said that the Sony speakers are an all round good speaker for smaller housings. I wondered about that but went ahead.

 

On second thoughts, I wish I had opted for Infinity (If any would have fitted) or In Phase (if any would have fitted).

 

I had a max of 6.5cm, and 54mm depth in the doors.

 

The sub is powerful, and had to turn it down (which is hard because he has mounted it right under my seat near the seat mount), but everything sounds pretty balanced now.

 

Just wish everything didn't vibrate on bassier songs so much...

 

To answer the above, most car setups use smaller speakers so a sub is something which just helps. It depends if you have space for the real wider type speakers in the car, which can go pretty low anyway.


Edited by musical-kage - 2/25/13 at 3:42pm
post #24 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by musical-kage View Post

To answer the above, most car setups use smaller speakers so a sub is something which just helps. It depends if you have space for the real wider type speakers in the car, which can go pretty low anyway.

 

Thanks for the reply.  What is considered a real wide type speaker?  I was originally eyeing this JL C3-600 (which fits into my car).

post #25 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post

 

Thanks for the reply.  What is considered a real wide type speaker?  I was originally eyeing this JL C3-600 (which fits into my car).

Sorry, I couldn't think of the type at the time, but they are the 6 by 9 inch ones. The wider ones. Any speaker with a bigger surface area is going to be better at bass. Its just which is going to generally fit without some modding. Most cars to fit 6"-9"'s need modding, i.e put in boot shelving units, or similar. Not a lot of cars would have space in the doors for them, but some do.

 

I also got that type, the 6 1/2 inch, but I chose Sony's... I'm hoping they burn in to reproduce sound to my tastes, but the sub I installed is helping.

Generally Vibe, Infinity, and In Phase are considered great speakers for car audio, but it depends on the fit.

 

One thing you'll have to worry about is mounting depth. If the speakers are bigger than your car door can handle, or smaller, you may need spacers, but also have to take note that you can't stop the window coming down for example. Needs to be space for the mechanisms.

 

A component system like the one you linked is always going to beat a single speaker, or co-axial speaker (the tweets is fitted to the mid unit) because the tweeter can then be placed anywhere.

Mine are co-axial, but I only have a Micra which only has door speakers.. and now a sub :p

 

6.5inch speakers WILL NOT be able to produce a full range though (I doubt, unless it has a massive depth), than a wider more efficent speaker which may be less thick due to the fact it doesn't have to try as hard to produce the sound. But doors are only made so thick, so I think that is another reason amps are so popular. They seriously fill in what the speakers themselves can't manage.

 

For sound, it seems bass is omni-directional, meaning it doesn't really matter where you put it, mids are quite directional, and highs are very directional. Place the highs in the wrong place, and you'll be able to tell the difference.

 

I had one of these placed under the seat:

 

http://www.inphaseaudio.co.uk/products/enclosures/ultra-compact-active-subwoofer/usw10/

 

Has a built in amp, so I didn't need an external one. Certainly seems to pack some punch and has gotten great reviews.

 

I wish I had it placed in the footwell of the passenger compartment and not under my seat though. Vibration is a bit much, but I'm still tinkering with settings to find a sweet spot.

 

But it has a cross over so you can set it to only start where the speakers fail to, i.e at around 50hz and below for mine, and then a gain control.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, unlike mine, make sure you get some kind of deadening material for the doors to soak up vibrations. Mine certainly do vibrate and I'll have to do something about that


Edited by musical-kage - 2/25/13 at 5:15pm
post #26 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post

 

1)  Sound deadening/dynamat stuff: How effective is it?  How low a frequency can it go?  I am hoping to get some installed behind the dashboard (the... firewall?) to help with engine noise, but the engine noise I want to mitigate is a low frequency rumble (like, 60 Hz and below).  I'm not asking for a miracle, but I would like the sound deadening stuff to help some with that. Besides that, I hope to improve road noise by installing the stuff in the floors and doors.  Where else should I be looking at?

 

 

Dynamat has a lot more effect on vibrations through "mass loading," and a lot less (or less predictable) on other sound sources getting in. For example, you upgrade your door mount speakers and maybe you get an amplifier, and they still lack bass extension and impact (within reason of what a driver that size can do of course), and worse when you play a bass-y track you can hear the door panel rattling - by applying Dynamat you are effectively making that door panel, which is too wide and too thin, heavier, in effect stopping it from vibrating. For older cars where there is another metal frame between the outer panel and the interior panel where the speakers are mounted, all those access holes effectively means it's like using a speaker cabinet with leaks on it (even freeair baffles are made much wider than the drivers to prevent cancellation) and the mechanisms such as the door latch will rattle against the metal frame, so you apply Dynamat there too so you cover the holes (effectively simulating a proper baffle, even if technically it's free air and you have leaks between the window glass and rubber seals), and maybe wrap the mechanisms with some sort of material, like foam.

 

What Dynamat doesn't help much with is when you have other sound sources. For example if you have a car blaring its horn right outside yours. Depending on the frequency range of the noise, maybe it stops a lot of it from vibrating through the resonant door panel, but it doesn't help with the soundwaves coming in through the seams between the window glass and the door frame, or between the door frame and the chassis. It may help quiet down that engine rattle, but only in so far as it can stop it vibrating the firewall or the soundwaves passing through it; but if the soundwaves from the engine noise travel out then into the same seams, it can't really help.

 

However there is no sure way to know other than to try it first. Just manage your expectations - some people get too worked up about these things because of an overenthusiastic advocate not explaining that it's not in any way like active noise cancelling. Or "magic."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post

2)  Must I get a subwoofer?  From what I read, it seems that subwoofers are far more common in car audio than they are in home audio.  Is this because car speakers are smaller and roll off at higher frequencies than home speakers?  Or is it because car audio enthusiasts tend to like bass a lot?  I don't really listen to bass-heavy music (mainly rock, classical, some jazz).  Am I missing out if I don't get a subwoofer?

 

Some car audio enthusiasts do tend to like bass a lot, in the sense that car audio competitions are based on Sound Quality and also Sound Pressure Level. The first group is tuning with Focal CDs and jazz CDs; the second group tunes with DTS test discs and Lil Jon.

 

However just because you're after SQ it doesn't dictate whether you need a sub or not - managed expectations and awareness of technical requirements and details (difficulties) should. For starters, let's compare 2ch audio at home vs a in a car - even with considerably similar speakers, like for example a Focal Polyglass VR2 and Focal Chorus 606V. Here are the technical differences : the Chorus is mounted in a sturdy box designed for it, down to the volume and port tuning, and for its price has reasonable resonance control, and you are sitting smack between them. The Polyglass has its midbass mounted on a car door with some air leaks on the rubber window seals; the mounting is far from ideal (see above); there's probably the interior door panel in the way which is nothing like the non-resonant, at worst treble reducing, fabric speaker cover for home speakers; and its tweeters are probably just on the dashboard or on the sail panel behind the rear view mirror. You can spend sweat and/or money mounting them properly, like the other photos I've posted on this thread, and maybe getting a processor with a 6-ch time alignment that can split the signal for tweeter and midwoofer, but in the end you're still sitting off-center and your car is nothing like the cabinet on the Chorus. So technically, it's not so much that the speakers are smaller, given people are more likely to mount the biggest their door mounts can afford or customize it while making do with 5.25" standmounts at home, but a proper enclosure or lack thereof, which even if you design speakers for free air design still has all those other issues for dealing with such problems as backwaves and cancellation.

 

Now, if you make the wrong analysis of what's going on and ergo of what you need, you could waste time and money. You upgrade your speakers and totally don't use Dynamat on a car that isn't anything like an Audi or BMW, and instead go for a sub, will get you a lot of low bass, but the question is how well you can integrate that in your system given the 1) upper bass frequencies are inaudible thanks to the absence of proper midwoofer mounting/enclosure, and 2) cutting the subwoofer crossover higher to compensate pulls the bass back, too low and you might not hear enough of the bass especially since your fronts aren't running anywhere near fullrange. Either way not even time alignment to delay the front speakers can put the bass on the dash as competition-grade systems do. And then past all that there's still the problem with the soundstage and the tweeter, which I've previously discussed extensively on this thread.

 

So basically, it's either you do the simple route and just mount a sub, or if you can make do with a bit less deep bass extension, you could just mount everything properly first and see if that's enough. But just to give you an example as to teh use of subwoofers in car Hi-Fi, here's Scott Buwalda's SQ competition Altima with three 12" DLS Ultimate subwoofers on the rear deck. Personally though the three subs have a lot more to do with aesthetics - he uses three dual mono amps for his 3-way fronts, so he's using three of the same amps to power three subs, that way you can look at a symmetrical amplifier rack (even I'm not THAT obsessive compulsive, but then again, I don't have any sponsors).

 

 

 

---

 

At this point you might ask why there are a lot of products for car Hi-Fi. Well, some people have to have a decent system with them everywhere (one dedicated at home, one at the workstation/office at home, decent earphones at minimum with a portable player or smartphone, one in the car...that's basically me), or you can't have a loud system at your apartment (which was me back in college when I started, since I moved into a flat near my university along with my brother). Or best yet, even with a decent system at home (even headphones) you actually have cash to spare.

 

As an additional reference, here's how my car audio adventure went:

1) buy JBL GTO. Lacks "bass," vocals off-center even with Balance controls, soundstage shape is weird.

2) Buy Polk Audio sub. Nice bass, seems to not be in sync with front, sub localized to the rear.

3) Eventually got Dynamat. Can barely tell the difference between no sub and sub tuned to not pull the bass towards the trunk.

4) Got a Pioneer with an active processor. Sold the sub.
5) Got Focal and Vifa raw drivers, the latter fiberglassed. Time alignment set properly. Result : soundstage more like home audio, what bass is there hits a lot harder. Content for now while money's tied up elsewhere, plus I live at our old house again, not at a flat near our university where I can piss off the neighbors while blasting Nightwish's Oceanborn at 12MN.

 

My long term goal though is to get a car that will be conducive for custom installs; I don't have the money yet but every time I check out cars I have questions the sales personnel can't answer (like warranties if I install the stuff; but so far most dealers say if I let them run the wires, the only thing I void is the stock stereo's if I replace it). However, the most important thing to me is a reasonably spacious cabin (at least in the front) so my legs don't cram all around where the speaker is firing (or cramp in traffic), and a dashboard where the instrument cluster doesn't bulge as much as they do on Mazdas or Porsches, so they don't get in the way of the tweeter. My current favorite right now is the Civic, with the Yaris sedan a close second.

post #27 of 67
Quote:

Originally Posted by musical-kage View Post

 

I had one of these placed under the seat:

 

http://www.inphaseaudio.co.uk/products/enclosures/ultra-compact-active-subwoofer/usw10/

 

Has a built in amp, so I didn't need an external one. Certainly seems to pack some punch and has gotten great reviews.

 

I wish I had it placed in the footwell of the passenger compartment and not under my seat though. Vibration is a bit much, but I'm still tinkering with settings to find a sweet spot.

 

But it has a cross over so you can set it to only start where the speakers fail to, i.e at around 50hz and below for mine, and then a gain control.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, unlike mine, make sure you get some kind of deadening material for the doors to soak up vibrations. Mine certainly do vibrate and I'll have to do something about that

 

Thanks!  These underneath compact subs may be a good solution for me.  Why did you settle on the In-Phase as opposed to a different brand/model?  I see several different kinds of these subs, including the Sound Ordnance B-8PT, Kenwood KSC-SW10, Pioneer TS-SWX251, and some other UK brands.

 

If I get a sub, I want it for its musical-ness.  How does it work for that?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

 

At this point you might ask why there are a lot of products for car Hi-Fi. Well, some people have to have a decent system with them everywhere (one dedicated at home, one at the workstation/office at home, decent earphones at minimum with a portable player or smartphone, one in the car...that's basically me), or you can't have a loud system at your apartment (which was me back in college when I started, since I moved into a flat near my university along with my brother). Or best yet, even with a decent system at home (even headphones) you actually have cash to spare.

 

As an additional reference, here's how my car audio adventure went:

1) buy JBL GTO. Lacks "bass," vocals off-center even with Balance controls, soundstage shape is weird.

2) Buy Polk Audio sub. Nice bass, seems to not be in sync with front, sub localized to the rear.

3) Eventually got Dynamat. Can barely tell the difference between no sub and sub tuned to not pull the bass towards the trunk.

4) Got a Pioneer with an active processor. Sold the sub.
5) Got Focal and Vifa raw drivers, the latter fiberglassed. Time alignment set properly. Result : soundstage more like home audio, what bass is there hits a lot harder. Content for now while money's tied up elsewhere, plus I live at our old house again, not at a flat near our university where I can piss off the neighbors while blasting Nightwish's Oceanborn at 12MN.

 

My long term goal though is to get a car that will be conducive for custom installs; I don't have the money yet but every time I check out cars I have questions the sales personnel can't answer (like warranties if I install the stuff; but so far most dealers say if I let them run the wires, the only thing I void is the stock stereo's if I replace it). However, the most important thing to me is a reasonably spacious cabin (at least in the front) so my legs don't cram all around where the speaker is firing (or cramp in traffic), and a dashboard where the instrument cluster doesn't bulge as much as they do on Mazdas or Porsches, so they don't get in the way of the tweeter. My current favorite right now is the Civic, with the Yaris sedan a close second.

 

Salamat!  So you currently don't have a subwoofer?  What active processor do you have?

post #28 of 67

I don't think I got much choice in the matter yesterday. I was basically thrown what will sound okay and that was it, after I gave a budget. I would of happily have paid slightly more for better quality though.

 

The In Phase sub isn't bad. Its very loud standard though, and I have to go back today because I rang him this morning.

 

"Wasn't there meant to be a remote fitted with this?"
 

His reply, "Yeah, but you could control the sub from the actual head unit so didn't think you'd need it"

 

I replied "Yeah, but you said yourself that the sound of the main door speakers would also be affected by the bass setting on the amp, and not just the sub".

 

So I have to go back to have him fit that.

 

At the same time, I'm going to explain to him why he thought Sony's were the best idea for my car.

 

The sound retrievel isn't there. No more quality than stock I have noticed. Its louder, but its not better.

 

The sub, and the head unit are probably the only two good things I've had fitted.

He also didn't mention sound deadening which will apparently cost an extra 40 to fit on both doors...

I shouldn't have to pay that. Far too much vibration.

I know I only have a Micra, but I expect more than that.

 

I think he thought I was some kind of bass head who just wanted pure volume. I'm not.

When I came to demo the unit, he had loudness settings fully on, bass fully up. I just said to him when bass kicked in "thats far too loud, turn it down". He was shocked at my reply.

When he left, I found the loudness settings, and the bass settings and cranked them all down.

 

I didn't even get to test the speakers before he fitted them. I wish now I had stuck to my guns and actually insisted I tested units first.

 

I'm sure with a max depth of 64 odd mm, in the doors, I could have gotten better speakers than what I've ended up with.

I just go along with the flow, and feel cheated afterwards :(

 

Thing is, to fit sound deadening which will apparently cost an extra 20 a side, I may as well say "Those Sony's by the way are useless at what I'm after", and get him to change them.

What do you reckon?

 

I'm taking somebody with me today though too. Someone a lot more experienced in how sales should work.

She thinks I should have been given these options yesterday, and they shouldn't have assumed me as being one of those types.

 

I even said myself I'm after quality, not loudness.


Edited by musical-kage - 2/26/13 at 6:39am
post #29 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post

Salamat!  So you currently don't have a subwoofer?  What active processor do you have?

You from here and studying over there at Berkeley or you live there in CA? beerchug.gif

 

Back on topic though - I'm just using my trusty old DEH-860MP CD receiver. The only current Pioneer with comparable features (and more) is the DEH-80PRS; the replacement of the 960MP/9650MP no longer has the same DSP, just the "bling" display. Alpine's given up on these one-box SQ solutions in favor of iPod receivers and a processor that can interface with any of the newer Ai-Net units (no need for those expensive processors that need DVD or F1 receivers for the SPDIF interface). BTW most stock receivers nowadays tend to have a flat or even enough frequency response, so a lot of newer processors have analog, speaker-level inputs - this way you no longer need to mess around with your stock system (especially if if came with GPS), which is great if all you really need out of the processor is a 6- or 8-way crossover and time alignment.

 

Long term though I'm planning to get a crossover or 5dr hatch for hauling stuff, but also to have the subs in the same cabin instead of a separate trunk if I don't mount them in front (but a crossover will still have more space for that than most compact sedans). Then probably an Alpine with the PXA-H100 Ai-Net processor,  new Focal 5" midwoofers in custom fiberglass kickpanels, new Vifa tweets on the A-pillars, and a pair of TangBand 6" subwoofers from Parts Express in modified door mounts.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post

 

If I get a sub, I want it for its musical-ness.  How does it work for that?

 

Generally, you'd want a sub in a sealed box to the manufacturer's minimum specs, or crunch the T/S parameters yourself (they usually have a bit of wiggle room but that's usually for people who want to install them in the most compact areas, like fiberglass-ed into the corner of the trunk). Aside from being compact this box design will have a higher roll-off point than a ported box, but above that it's generally smoother/flatter (and even if a quality sub is smooth in a ported box, would you need all the extra enclosure size?), and sometimes it may even have a noticeably better transient response.

 

Now, those active subs can be compact, but I can't attest to their sound quality in the same terms. Some have ported boxes, some are too compact but still ported, sometimes it's tempting to keep it under the seat which makes it seem louder thanks to vibrations but that also increases the chances of localizing where the bass is coming from, ergo it might not integrate with the rest of the speakers; worse I think some of them use drivers that are just woofers but not real compact subwoofers (unlike JLAudio's 6" subs, which have huge magnets and long baskets), or they're the same ones you find in PC speakers. But then again if you can have it installed temporarily (you'll still need the wires they'll run through the car if you get a different amp and sub anyway) so you can hear them and judge a specific product's performance yourself, that would be ideal.


Edited by ProtegeManiac - 2/26/13 at 9:17am
post #30 of 67

Went back today and said I wasn't happy with the sound.

He opened it up again and replaced the speakers with a set of MAC. Tonnes better than the Sonys, even if I can't find any reviews of them.

 

Then he added a set of component Macs with the tweeters on the dash, and the sound just lifted, so now I have a set of speakers I'm happy with =D

 

He tried to set some T-Rex 6.1s that have gotten rave reviews but they wouldn't fit into the doors =(


Edited by musical-kage - 2/27/13 at 7:18am
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