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HD-650 Veil Update: The "Veil" is Not Real

post #1 of 153
Thread Starter 

I know there have been many threads on here regarding this.  I have read many of them, but I am still alittle confused.  I picked up a pair of HD-650.  THey are about 4 years old, they have the dark colored grill, but have the silver dampening inside.  When I first listened to them, I thought they sounded great.  I started comparing them to the Denon AHD2000 and after extensive comparison on multiple songs, I did notice sort of a "veil" on the HD-650.  I dont know if this "veil" was just in my head and caused by the reduced treble of the HD650 compared to the denon, but I keep coming back and listening to the HD-650 alone and I keep noticing this "veil" The best way I can describe it is it sort of sounds like there is a piece of paper or blocking the sound.  Maybe its just the treble difference thats got me.  Anyway, I am powering them with nuforce icon HDP, so amping/DAC is not the problem.  I was just wondering, would selling them and getting a newer version of the HD-650 (if there is one?) would help.  I read on here someone saying that the newest versions of the HD-650 are a tad bit more brighter (not that they were bright in the first place).  My current 650s have the silver dampening, so not sure how different the newer version would be. 


 

 

Update:  Having listened to the hd-650s for about a week now on their own, I can clarify that I do not hear any sort of veil.  That's not to say, that if I were to begin doing a comparison with another headphone, that I would not notice any "veiling".  However, I must agree the majority of you guys that the HD-650 is just a laid back headphone which some people think is a veil (which I did when comparing to the D2000, but I now believe that it was just a product of the difference in treble/ sound signature between the headphones). 

 

Bottom line, I wake up-put on these headphones and hear no veil.  I would greatly recommend these headphones to anyone who may be debating whether or not to get them. 


Edited by mac336 - 3/18/12 at 9:54pm
post #2 of 153

I must've read about 1000 posts about the HD650s while I was researching whether to get them or the HD600s.  Here's what I came up with regarding the mysterious "veil":

 

1) The veil might have existed to a small extent in older HD650s, but it was greatly exaggerated because of the smooth sound signature

2) Newer versions may have "fixed" the the slight veil, but the jury is still out on that one; seems a consensus was not met

3) The presence of a veil is mainly due to amping differences; the HD650s scale very well with amping, with more powerful amps removing the veil and lower powered amps confounding some of the veil problems

 

I've never heard the HD650s, so I can't say if there is a veil.  But, I read the same thing about the HD600s.  I can say that mine have no veil and they are very airy.  I do amp them with some serious muscle, though.

 

post #3 of 153
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the response, I had read about that but I figured the nuforce amp would be strong enough, apparently not.  I was not aware that the HD-600 also had this "veil," I was about to purchase a pair to compare to the hd-650.  What amp are you using?

post #4 of 153

I've run my HD600s out of a Woo 3, Schiit Asgard, and a Trafomatic Experience Head One.  No veil on any of them.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac336 View Post

  What amp are you using?



 

post #5 of 153

On my HD-600 I fixed it by:

 

a) Upgrading cable

b) Getting a new DAC/Amp.

 

This veil thing was reduced slightly with the silver screen I think.

 

If someone makes a new $20 cable for the HD-650 and still claim there is a veil, I will live in a hole for the next month.

Nobody give me the cable lecture, it's $20!!

 

I'm one of those morons who thinks it's caused by the crappy stock cable. Sorry.

 

post #6 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac336 View Post

Thanks for the response, I had read about that but I figured the nuforce amp would be strong enough, apparently not.  I was not aware that the HD-600 also had this "veil," I was about to purchase a pair to compare to the hd-650.  What amp are you using?



I wouldn't trust people who say it's not enough amping. Every single time I had a new amp on here, people always said my amp is junk or that it's not powerful enough. Even my old Asgard. Even if I don't like a signature of a headphone.

I doubt your amp will have any issue with the HD-650. Worth a try at least.

post #7 of 153

I'll agree with you to a point.  If it's a dedicated amp, the HD600 and 650s should have enough power to be driven properly.  But, if I plug my HD600s into my iPod or ancient Sony Discman, there is a very noticeable drop off in dynamics and air.  The HD600 and 650s really do scale nicely with amping.  You're right that two desktop amps shouldn't have that much of a difference in "power to veil ratio", but opamp-based portable devices will have a drop off.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post



I wouldn't trust people who say it's not enough amping. Every single time I had a new amp on here, people always said my amp is junk or that it's not powerful enough. Even my old Asgard. Even if I don't like a signature of a headphone.

I doubt your amp will have any issue with the HD-650. Worth a try at least.



 

post #8 of 153
Thread Starter 

I have my nuforce icon HDP connected to my laptop via usb.  Would using the coaxial or optical connection help at all, or is this strictly an amping issue?

  • USB 2.0 Full Speed compliant and 1.1 supported, 8-96kHz/16-24-bit (88.2kHz is not supported)
  • S/PDIF input: Coaxial up to 192kHz/24-bit or Optical up to 192kHz/24-bit

Edited by mac336 - 3/11/12 at 9:03pm
post #9 of 153

I don't think your amp is causing a veil.  I really think that you just don't like the sound signature of the HD650s.  They are very laid back and dark.  They will sound more veiled than other headphones out there just do to voicing designs.

post #10 of 153
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post

I don't think your amp is causing a veil.  I really think that you just don't like the sound signature of the HD650s.  They are very laid back and dark.  They will sound more veiled than other headphones out there just do to voicing designs.



Yea, I was thinking about this also.  I never even noticed the veil until I began immediate comparisons with the Denons. 

post #11 of 153
I personally don't think there is a veil on my HD 650's. Not with any amp I own, and that includes my AMB Mini3.
I have got so used to the sound signature of the HD 650's that it has become my definition of neutral to which I compare other headphones (and speakers sometimes).

It is true that these headphones are quite laid back and smooth. This might be perceived as a 'veil', but I personally don't think it is anything of the sort.
post #12 of 153

Agree with previous posts, with a proper amp the HD650 sound solid and bright - while I secretly enjoy the smooth under-amp feel at night in bed.

 

HD650%20wallpaer%201609.jpg

post #13 of 153

Its all depend on what phones you are comparing it with.  I mean if I use my Denon D7000 for extended period and change to HD650 I hear the difference and it sounds like "veiled".  But if I let it play longer little by little my hears get use to the sound signature and in short time its not there.  Like Tilpo said this a laid back sound phone.  I've try  this both SS and tube amps with same result.

post #14 of 153

I read about the veil issue, but I don't hear it on my HD-650. The older HD-600 did have a slight veil, but I did not have a good source at that time when I had them. These are 300 Ohm headphones so they are a bit challenging to drive. Have you checked with the specifications for your source and headphone amplifier to see if they are rated to drive such headphones?

post #15 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoebeFairchild View Post

I read about the veil issue, but I don't hear it on my HD-650. The older HD-600 did have a slight veil, but I did not have a good source at that time when I had them. These are 300 Ohm headphones so they are a bit challenging to drive. Have you checked with the specifications for your source and headphone amplifier to see if they are rated to drive such headphones?

Impedance is not the only thing that determines how hard it is to drive. The most important thing is sensitivity, and the HD650's are despite their high impedance still pretty sensitive. You can drive them from an iPod to reasonable volumes. Not advisable to listen to them straight from an iPod, but it does show that the HD650's are actually not that hard to drive (in terms of power)
The higher the impedance the easier a headphone is to drive, i.e. an amplifier tends to have lower distortion in a high impedance load than it does in a low impedance one. High impedance will on the other hand also decrease, which does make it harder to drive.
A load that has low impedance and low sensitivity is the hardest to drive. Examples of these kind of headphones are the AKG K701 and the Hifiman HE-6.
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